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Tactical Discussion - The 4-4-2 Formation My take on a good 4-4-2 - Player Roles/Duties Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   TheIrishMourinho Icon

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 05:20 PM

I have been playing this game long enough to get a good understanding of tactics in the real world of football and in Football Manager. This write up is not by any means tactical genius or anything, just my take on things. I enjoy creating a fluid side who are a big threat going forward but still manage to keep it tight at the back. I am a fan of 4-4-2 and 9/10 it is my preferred formation. I like fast, creative attacking football. Maybe those of you who play with lower league teams may not be able to relate with this but I hope you read it anyway. This write-up is based on my team with Spurs in 2011/12. I am sure that this relates to other teams in the same position. Provided that your team has the required players.


What Makes up a Successful 4-4-2



Defence

Full Backs

I like the idea of having full backs who can do the right things such as tackle, mark, position themselves and head the ball but also posses the secondary skills of good pace, passing and crossing to go forward.

But I feel that it is safer to have one Full back who has both skills and one who is more defensive minded to provide cover at the back when the other Full Back is going forward to support.

For my Spurs side I have Corluka at RB. He is an average full back. With att's like 14 or 15 in the area's I mentioned above he still makes a good full back. Because he doesn't really have great skills in the attacking side I play him as a Full Back/Defend. His pace is 12 which means to me that if he is going to be moving up the pitch then it will be a lot harder for him to track back in time to catch a left winger on a counter attack.

Left back is Gareth Bale. He is a better player than Corluka because he has both sets of skills. Defensively he is a good player because he has good heading, marking and positioning. He also has the pace and crossing to be a capable player going forward. I use him as a Full Back/Automatic which means that the player himself will decide whether he needs to stay behind or if he needs to go forward and support.

With both fullbacks opposite to each other like that it leaves less of a chance of being exposed. If Bale goes forward, there are three defenders left to protect the goal rather than two if Corluka was also going forward also.

Centre Backs

An ideal partnership is made up of two types of centre backs. The Big, Strong and Tall centre back and the pacey centre back. These two centre backs work well because you have one tall centre back who wins the headers and gets in the strong tackles on opposing attackers and one fast defender who chases down fast strikers and clears up loose ball by tracking back.

The strong centre back in my case is Michael Ciani who is set as a Central Defender/Defend. To be successful in his role he needs to be strong in the following area's; Heading, Tackling, Strength, Positioning and Decisions. He needs to be a tall player, capable of winning the aerial battles and being physically stronger than the attackers. This player plays slightly higher than the faster centre back and he is usually first to claim for the high balls and is the first to greet an oncoming threat.

The fast centre back, in my case, Sebastien Bassong is the faster of the two centre backs and is set to Central Defender/Cover He needs to have high numbers in the following areas; Acceleration, Anticipation and also the ones mentioned for the Stronger defender. This player plays a little behind the stronger centre back, hence the term cover and chases the speedy strikers and is the last line of defence before the goalkeeper. He needs to watch out for through balls and needs to be first to the ball otherwise your team will be in trouble.


Midfield

Centre Midfield

In the centre of midfield I like to have one attack minded player and one defensive minded player. I feel that if you have two attacking centre midfielders or two defensive minded centre midfielders you don't get the balance right to make a successful team. I believe that having two opposite minded central midfield players means that you are able to link the three phases a lot easier and create fluid football. For e.g The defensive centre midfielder links the defence and the midfield by dropping a little deeper and winning the ball and sweeping up the area between the defence and midfield. The attacking centre midfielder mives a little higher up the pitch and recieves ball from the defensive minded midfielder or from the flanks and occupies the space in front of the forward line creating chances and looking for the long shots. He links the midfield to the attack by getting ball just inside the oppositions half and bringing it forward to spread out to the wingers, through balls to the forwards or making space for a long shot at goal. In my opinion playing these two types of central midfielders is the best option. Otherwise you either play too attacking, or too defensive.

Using Tottenham as my example again I play Luka Modric & Tom Huddlestone as my two centre midfielders. Modric being the attack minded one and Huddlestone more defensive minded.

Starting with Huddlestone. I believe that the defensive minded player should be a Ball Winning Midfielder/Defend. For this role/duty you need a player who primarily has good tackling, marking and positioning. The main job of this player is to defend and win the ball back for the team. The secondary role of the BWM is to pass the ball off to safety and start off an attack. This player will need good physical attributes if he is going to be succesful because it can be a tiring job. Look out for good att's in Stamina, Acceleration & Pace. Work rate and team work are an added bonus for a great ball winning midfielder. Using the defend duty is the best option. If you choose support then the player will be too far up the field, in my opinion.

The attack minded player, in my case is Luka Modric should be set as Advanced Playmaker/Support. This player is the more creative of the two, the player who looks to take the ball forward and create chances that lead to goals. He plays higher up the pitch than the defensive player but not too far up. If he is set to attack he is playing that little bit too far up and there is too much of a gap in the middle of the pitch. Support duty is just right because there is a balance between passing the ball out wide and moving forward with the ball. This player need to be a skilful player. Passing, creativity, and long shots are key here. A good player for this role will also have good attributes in the following area's; technique, flair, decisions, first touch and good stamina.

This combination provides a good central midfield partnership and is the best way to get the ball up the field in a safe way and still allows you to be defensive in midfield. Both players need good passing to make it work. Passing is key to holding onto the ball and moving it forward.

The Wingers

I like to play with wingers rather than wide midfielders. I don't see the need for wide midfielders when the central midfield partnership is the best possible way to allow freedom for wingers to bomb up the flanks and give crosses in. I play two wingers but one is on attack and the other on support. Just like the Full Backs, I like to have one of the wingers a little deeper than the other so we are not going to be caught on the counter attack.

Which winger do you give attack / support duty to?

The support winger is the lesser player ability wise. He may not be a great player at passing or finishing but he does have the pase, dribbling and crossing to make up for that. This player is set to Winger/Support His main role is to cross the ball in to the target man. He uses his pace to pass the defence and get the ball in as quick as possible. My example for this is Aaron Lennon. A very fast player who has the ability to give in a good cross whilst also possessing a good dribbling ability. He is a good player and will deliver the ball in but we keep him on support when the opposite winger is a better player.

The winger on attack duty is a better all round player. He is set to Winger/Attack Not only does he do all of what the support winger does, he also is a good player for long shots and passing. He runs at defenders more than the support player but crosses the ball less too. He scores more goals because he runs at the goal more often than the support winger. If there is a cross on the he will go for it but otherwise he will run down the flank and cut in at goal for a shot or plays off a good through ball. The example of this in my team is Angel Di Maria.


Forwards

Up front I love the idea of playing the Big Man/Small Man combination.
Let me explain. Having two different forwards is key in creating a a successful partnership up front, which leads to more goals for your team. The big man is the tall strong centre forward who has good aerial ability, strength and finishing to not only score goals but feed the little man. He is essentially your 'Target Man'. You need your wingers to cross the ball to him and basically make him the man to aim at. Why? Because he will win a lot more ball than the smaller man. He will use his strength and aerial ability to score goals with his head or else knock the ball down to the small man to use his finishing to tap home an easy finish.The small man is a quick striker with good finishing. He is further up the field than the Big Man and his main aim is to score goals. He is always looking for that opportunity to knock one in. He uses his pace and finishing to race past defenders and is first to the ball and knocks them in.

What roles should you give the Big Man and Small Man?

Big Man

I will start with the Big Man. For Tottenham my Big Man is Oscar Cardozo, and he is very big. He is set to Complete Forward/Attack. Standing at 6"4 he is the perfect man for the job. With attributes of 18 for heading, 18 for strength, and 17 for finishing he is your ideal Big Man and is played best as a Complete Forward/Attack. He wins the ball when crosses comes in. He uses his head to score those vital goals but also beats defenders to the ball in the air and knocks the ball down for the small man to get onto. He plays a little behind the small man because he is the stronger of the two and needs to get onto the ball so he can pass it through to the small man. If he was on support he would be a little too deep to give the ball into the small man. With attack he scores more headers and gets the ball onto the small man's feet. He uses his strength to wrestle with the defence and does his best to assist to poacher who is lurking in front of goal waiting to pounce.

Small Man

The small man is essentially your striker. He will be set to Poacher/Attack. His primary job is to score goals. No battling for the ball with the defence, that job is done by the Big Man. The player I use with Tottenham is Jermaine Defoe. Small but fast striker with good finishing. He is too small to win the aerial battles. He doesn't have the strenght to battle with centre backs. But all that work is done by your Big Man. Defoe has one thing on his mind. Scoring goals. He doesn't score wonder goals but he poaches and scores the goals by picking up on loose ball and running onto the end of through balls and knock downs from the Big Man.

Last season with Spurs I used that set up for my forwards. Jermaine Defoe score 45 goals in 42 starts (3 sub appearances). Oscar Cardozo scored 20 goals in 37 starts (6 sub appearances). We scored the most goals in the Premier League that season despite finishing in 6th place. Defoe broke the record for the most goals in an English Premier League season with 39 goals. This is proof that the set up is very successsful.



A visual example of the set-up


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That concludes my write up on the 4-4-2 formation. I welcome any feedback.

Aodhagan Clifford
http://FootballManagerCareers.com
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#2 User is offline   Rowan Icon

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 05:41 PM

All good points and an impressive write up mate.

I usually manage lower down the divisions and have tried time and again to utilise wingers in a 442 or 451 formation, but with nowhere near as much success as a narrow 41212 or 433 formation.

I always thought it was just this version of the game that seemed to favour the narrow formation, but if you and others have had success with a wider shape I'd love to try and replicate further down the leagues.

I'd be more interested to hear about how your wingers got on than your forwards...ie, what ratings and how many assists they picked up...

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 05:55 PM

I'm playing a succesful 4-4-2 atm with Blackpool, I have both my midfielders set to central midfielder support though, with my wingers both set to attack.

#4 User is offline   TheIrishMourinho Icon

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 06:02 PM

Di Maria - 35 games - 9 assists and 6 goals

Lennon - 29 games 9 assists and 3 goals

That may not look great but they whey I set up is for them to feed Cardozo who in turn feeds Defoe.
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Posted 08 September 2010 - 07:31 PM

Dunno about Corluka there. I had him at RB for my Everton team and was one of my top 3 players for a few seasons running. Wouldn't call him average. Scored 2 or 3 important goals and definitely got forward efficiently.

Fair play on the CBs though, if you have one stopping and the other covering it can work well. I usually just have both set to the same thing, but that's just me because I need to have symmetrical tactics :D

As for wingers, again, if you're a pressing, attacking team, then I see no reason not to go all out with the Wingers going Attack for both. I tend to go all out and stick them at AMR and AML as well, and they beat the full back a lot more. Lennon certainly isn't adept at defending and his pace makes it all the more important for him to be on the other end of the pitch because he can get on the end of balls. Your wingers do need to track back of course, but in a counter attack, it's not them but the centre backs and defensive minded midfielder who need to cover. And fullbacks as well.

Big man, small man is perfect for Spurs, spot on there. I don't know Cardozo's attributes, although I'd be wary of giving him a complete forward (rather than advanced) unless he has quality all round stats.


The goal statistics are remarkable though. Shows the top two work well. Defoe (and other English strikers like Delfouneso and plenty of regens I had) are brilliant poachers.

Obviously with your team, the balance is there so I wouldn't put the wingers at AMR/L. But the defence (seeing as you finished 5th) would need tweaking.

Good read though, interesting insight.

#6 User is offline   TheIrishMourinho Icon

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 08:02 PM

Ehmo - That was a great reply, thank you.

Here is a screenie of Cardozo:

Complete Forward/Attack

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Advanced Forward/Attack

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Obviously I agree with the fact that the defence needs tweaking and I am currently working on that. I think going forward we are the best team in the league but concede too often. We need a balance but how many goals will we sacrifice to achieve that?
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Posted 08 September 2010 - 08:17 PM

It's always a tough balance to find. I always like to have a well attacking mindset (if I have the basis of the team). But it takes a while to achieve the balance. One season I was dominating the goals scored, but I conceded more than 4 or 5 teams. The next it was the other way round, because I probably overcompensated. Obviously if you want to be the best team consistently you need to be dominant in both.

Also remember if your two CBs have different roles, and your two FBs have different roles, you've ended up having 4 different positions, which makes it harder to play the offside trap and maintain a straight backline. And if they push up on larger pitches with quicker strikers, then they're exposed more often.

I'd just give both Bale and Corluka a normal role (Automatic, is it called?) so it changes based on your team system. Your system as a whole doesn't seem to be too adventurous, so maybe it's a case of your personnel.

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 08:46 PM

I had a similar situation with my first two seasons with Spurs

Season One

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We conceded very little but simply didn't score enough goals. (This cost us 4th place and Champions League football)

Season Two

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Scored the most goals in the league but look how many we conceded compared to season one. You are right, it is a hard balance to find.

As I said above I would prefer have Corluka on defend and Bale on automatic because I want to keep three defenders at the back to help avoid being caught on the counter.
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Posted 08 September 2010 - 10:42 PM

I do find 4-4-2 is difficult to set up defensively, I'm managing Blackpool so its slightly different and I've had the worst defence in the league 2 years running but one of the best attacks. It may be down to the way I'm playing though as I've tweaked it in the third season and I'm starting to concede less goals.

I've put both my defenders to limited defender/defend - I'll report back at the end of the season with how well the defence did compared to seasons one and two, as I haven't really changed personnel.

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:18 PM

Do that Poe. It will be interesting to compare results.

I am now using the Nike Defence System for the remainder of the season.
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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:36 PM

Yeah I don't let my CBs and GK have any creativity and right down to defensive mentality. This way they don't do things they can't and don't f*ck about.

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 02:20 AM

Well I have to say it's working awesomely, I've cut out the silly goals and I'm shipping nowhere near as many.

Sitting 3rd in the table after 21 games and have just progressed to the League Cup final.

Blackpool on the up :cool:

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 12:17 PM

I see you play fluid, also with giving more roaming and more creative freedom. If I were you I'd set it to rigid and less creativity and roaming, as two banks of 4 are generally quite hard to break down. Then go into the advanced settings and give more creative freedom and roaming to the players you think deserve/need it :thup:
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Posted 09 September 2010 - 01:33 PM

View PostTheIrishMourinho, on 08 September 2010 - 11:18 PM, said:

Do that Poe. It will be interesting to compare results.

I am now using the Nike Defence System for the remainder of the season.


Do u play fluid or balanced on the team instructions screen, i find just setting it to balanced can stop u conceeding a few goals, with my chelsea team i play with a 'Rigid@ team instruction. Winning 1-0, 2-0 :-) sometimes more but two league titles in a row and one Champions League, one FA Cup and one league Cup :-)

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:01 PM

Now I am playing a 4-4-2 Diamond.

The defence is set up like this:

Full Back Right - Support

Long shots – Rarely
Cross from – Mixed
Tight Marking – Mixed

Full Back – Left - Support

Long shots – Rarely
Cross from – Mixed
Tight Marking – Mixed

Defender Centre – Right - Defend

Mentality 6
Creative Freedom 2
Tight Marking – Yes

Defender Centre – Left - Cover

Mentality 3
Creative Freedom 2
Tight Marking – Yes

Defensive Midfielder – Defend

Mentality 5
Creative Freedom 1
Through Balls – Sometimes
Hold up Ball - No


Those are the changes I have made to tighten the defence. Everything else is set as the default for each role/duty.

MR - Winger/Attack
ML - Winger/Attack
AMC - Advanced Playmaker/Support
FCR - Advanced Forward/Attack
FCL - Complete Forward/Attack

All the above on the default settings for their roles/duties.

What Philosophy & Strategy should I use do you think?
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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:40 PM

This is what I am going for

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:24 PM

Im not a fan of 4-4-2 on Football Manager, whenever I have tried it the wingers just don't contribute enough to the game and very few crosses produce goals unless you have someone ridiculous like Dzeko or Drogba in the box. It is MUCH easier to produce a winning tactic with a narrow formation in my opinion, my personal favourite formation is Ancelotti's 4-3-1-2 formation while he was at Milan. Two box to box midfielders either side of a deep lying playmaker, with an attacking midfielder behind two strikers. The box to box mids stop the opposition wide players so it is effective against a team playing 4-4-2, and it just generally produces more attractive football and enables your team to control the possesion.


Obviously the success of any formation depends on the players that you have and you pick your tactics on that basis, but when I have the choice to mould the squad into a particular way of playing I would always go for 4-3-1-2. With the exception of my current Barcelona game, simply because Barca's best players are not suited to this style. Well thats my opinion anyway lol.

This post has been edited by Banana Rama: 09 September 2010 - 10:25 PM


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Posted 25 September 2010 - 05:12 AM

thank so much !

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 01:57 AM

View PostBanana Rama, on 09 September 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

Im not a fan of 4-4-2 on Football Manager, whenever I have tried it the wingers just don't contribute enough to the game and very few crosses produce goals unless you have someone ridiculous like Dzeko or Drogba in the box. It is MUCH easier to produce a winning tactic with a narrow formation in my opinion, my personal favourite formation is Ancelotti's 4-3-1-2 formation while he was at Milan. Two box to box midfielders either side of a deep lying playmaker, with an attacking midfielder behind two strikers. The box to box mids stop the opposition wide players so it is effective against a team playing 4-4-2, and it just generally produces more attractive football and enables your team to control the possesion.


Obviously the success of any formation depends on the players that you have and you pick your tactics on that basis, but when I have the choice to mould the squad into a particular way of playing I would always go for 4-3-1-2. With the exception of my current Barcelona game, simply because Barca's best players are not suited to this style. Well thats my opinion anyway lol.


The 4-4-2 is an excellent formation when used how Alf Ramsey intended, i.e. wingerless. The tactics creator allows you to choose to choose side midfielders for wide players in FM and they seem to be very good at performing the required duties.

I too have an issue with wingers in a 4-4-2, namely I find they too often can be found further up the pitch and can easily be caught on the break. Tom Soares on FM 09 was a particular favourite of mine in a wide role, sure he was never the most technically gifted player in the game, but his mental attributes were outstanding for any midfield player and as such he was brilliant at holding the shape of the team whilst being a complete midfielder.

My benchmark with Football Manager is that if you can't make a successful 4-4-2 then there is something wrong with the game itself, I struggled on FM 06, but since then I've found with perseverance the game does open up, however too often I've found it has come at the cost of my employment at a club, although I guess that adds to the trial and improvement nature that is so necessary in the game.

My question to you would be whether you find the tactics creator has actually helped you in creating your tactic?

Personally I find I often don't spend as much time focusing on tactics as I used to, as a result of the streamlined process involved. Sure the previous method was draconian, but it required you to really put effort into the formation, often resulting in solid efforts. Now I find any mistakes in my process are only found out at crucial periods in the season, often when it is too late to make drastic changes.

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 11:24 PM

View PostDnipro, on 28 September 2010 - 01:57 AM, said:

The 4-4-2 is an excellent formation when used how Alf Ramsey intended, i.e. wingerless. The tactics creator allows you to choose to choose side midfielders for wide players in FM and they seem to be very good at performing the required duties.

I too have an issue with wingers in a 4-4-2, namely I find they too often can be found further up the pitch and can easily be caught on the break. Tom Soares on FM 09 was a particular favourite of mine in a wide role, sure he was never the most technically gifted player in the game, but his mental attributes were outstanding for any midfield player and as such he was brilliant at holding the shape of the team whilst being a complete midfielder.

My benchmark with Football Manager is that if you can't make a successful 4-4-2 then there is something wrong with the game itself, I struggled on FM 06, but since then I've found with perseverance the game does open up, however too often I've found it has come at the cost of my employment at a club, although I guess that adds to the trial and improvement nature that is so necessary in the game.

My question to you would be whether you find the tactics creator has actually helped you in creating your tactic?

Personally I find I often don't spend as much time focusing on tactics as I used to, as a result of the streamlined process involved. Sure the previous method was draconian, but it required you to really put effort into the formation, often resulting in solid efforts. Now I find any mistakes in my process are only found out at crucial periods in the season, often when it is too late to make drastic changes.



To be honest I think its correct that its difficult to make a succesful wingers 4-4-2 in the game, its quite an outdated formation that none of the mega clubs use apart from Man Utd, even Utd only use it against the rubbish teams lol. Barca, Madrid, Arsenal, Chelsea, Inter, Milan, Lyon, etc, none of them use 4-4-2 so I think this is reflected within the game. I have found the tactics creator in FM10 to be excellent, it allows you to make a totally unique tactic and make changes depending on the opposition.

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