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Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Am I really playing this damn video game once again? I sure am! Let's see how long it lasts this time…

 

Since dropping my (relatively successful) save with Valencia four or so months ago, I've had no intention of playing the game whatsoever and - like before - I genuinely thought I was done with it. Yet, on a total whim a few nights back (Tuesday 27th, to be precise) I had a few hours to kill and I had the urge to play Football Manager 2022. Fast forward almost two nights and I've only gone and hooked myself into a journeyman save.

 

If you've seen any of my (many, seldom trophy laiden) previous career posts on here you'll know that I love journeyman saves, there is nothing better. However, they can obviously be tougher to get into due to the difficulty so I wasn't planning on playing this save past Tuesday night. As you can probably assume, the save has gone very well thus far and I've been filling a lot (too much!) of my time playing it. I've no idea how long I'll be playing, but I always enjoy sharing on this site so I thought why not do so with this.

 

I'll probably only do season-by-season updates, though naturally if I want to add more detail then I may do so. Anyway, pointless prologue out the way, here's a rundown of Season 1 of the incredibly creatively titled “A Journey From Balikpapan”.

 

--------

If you know your geography, that title gives away my first club. Despite an offer from divisional rivals PSPS, I would eventually go on to sign with…

Persiba from Indonesia's second tier, Liga 2.

 

A second tier side since 2018, Beruang Madu were desperate to return to the top-flight, a division they actually won in 2009-10. Now in Liga 2, the media were predicting us to finish 6th but the board wanted us to reach the promotion third place play-off; it's an interesting league set-up, the short and sweet: 2 groups of 12 (play each x2), top 4 of each group go into a second round of 2 groups of 4 (play each x1) and then the top 2 in each group head into semi-finals/third/final play-offs with all bar 4th (third play-off loser) gaining promotion - winner claims the division as a whole.

 

In pre-season, we would be a little raided for players from other clubs - a theme that continued all season, though to a slightly lesser extent. Despite that, I was happy enough with my squad come the season's start in June 2021. We began the season superbly, winning 12 of our first 16 (losing just once) in the league as well as progressing to round four in the Indonesian Cup; notably knocking out top-flight Barito Putera away from home. Into September, our form dropped off a fair bit but we'd gradually sneak out the necessary results - though would leave the cup, but understandably at the hands of Liga 1 leaders (and eventual champs) Arema.

 

At around the time of that cup exit, we had already secured our place in the second stage - going on to finish nine points clear of 2nd, having lost just that once. In the second stage, despite iffy performances, we'd finish atop of our four-team group by 1pt after W1 D2 L0. Into the play-offs, we eliminated big rivals Mitra Kukar in the semi-finals to secure promotion to the top division! Awesome! Work was still to do, however, as we wanted - and merited - that title. PSMS were our opponents in the showpiece final and… we edged them out to win 1-0! Promotion + title! Into Liga 1, we go?

 

Well, not “we” - at least not collectively, more on that shortly - as I've in fact since resigned as manager of Persiba with immediate effect. Why? Well, as alluded to earlier on, we've been absolutely Ajax'd throughout the season for our best (literally, 6 in total with 4 undoubtedly key) players as many have secured moves elsewhere for 2022. I was admittedly slow in attempting to get them down to new contracts, but to be honest given it also happened for different players in pre-season they probably would've forced moves in the mid-season window… which would've been worse as we'd lose them for the promotion charge.

 

Therefore, I felt we were not prepped at all for top-flight football. In past saves I'd stay loyal and try my best after promotion, though I thought this time - coupled with the aforementioned - I'd leave while my manager's rep was relatively hot. I noted above about “we”, I was referencing the fact that my new job is at a Liga 1 club so I will be in Indonesia's top division - just not with Persiba, more so against them.

 

My new club is… Madura United!

It's a step up, no doubt. They finished 13th (of 18) last season in the top tier, 14pts above relegation and they reached the cup semi-finals. Theoretically, I should be able to have a stable run in Liga 1 at this team… which was unlikely at Persiba, in my opinion. Intruiged to see how it goes.

 

Below is my Excel spreadsheet that I keep tally with, along with some screenshots from the 2021 season beneath the spoiler wall.

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472
Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

 

Some effort from the squad, just 1pt off Persib with 5 matches remaining. I can't say I'm confident as Persib have dropped a number of points via draws recently but each time we've failed to take advantage. I basically have a first XI and that's it, so I'm running them kinda ragged especially as there's been a number of midweek fixtures - which is where that massive home match with Persib falls on the antepenultimate matchday of the campaign. We couldn't do it, could we?

 

If nothing else, AFC Cup (Europa League-esque) football should (fingers crossed) be forthcoming, which would still be a great achievement given we were predicted to come 8th and the team finished near the bottom (albeit far from relegation points-wise) last season.

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472
Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

2/5

Big one up next!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472
Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

4/5

Well, there it is. Congratulations to Persib (who I have fond memories of managing back on FM17, btw). Great effort from our team, especially with AFC Cup football guaranteed for 2023. Should be fun!

 

Last match of the season still to play, which is \\checks notes// 29 days away. Righto.

tongey
13 years ago
1 month ago
1,008

Nice to see you back with a journeyman! Always enjoy reading them. 

 

Unlucky to not pip Persib to the post, but a dreadful game against them was always in the script eh! Back to the drawing board and go again next season!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472
By tongey 01 October 2022 - 08:11 AM UTC 

Nice to see you back with a journeyman! Always enjoy reading them. 

 

Unlucky to not pip Persib to the post, but a dreadful game against them was always in the script eh! Back to the drawing board and go again next season!

 

That Persib match really was dreadful - 3 goals shipped in 21 first half minutes, quite the let down! Can't complain too much though, I guess, as 2nd is an overachievement on our part. We go again in 2023!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Season 2 of the save and season 1 with Madura United. Here's a recap of how 2022 went.

 

The campaign got underway in April with victories over promoted sides PSMS and, my former team, Persiba as well as over Bali United - we won 8-0 across those matches to get a dream start. Matchday 4 would see us lose to, as you can see above, eventual title rivals Persib. We didn't let that defeat get to us, though, as the great form continued with 10 wins across the next 15 matches; losing only once to Persebaya. We would soon lose in round two of the Indonesian Cup to second tier Persip, though I did select a much rotated XI - and, again, as noted in a previous post our squad depth is… lacking, to put it kindly.

 

September got underway with dropped points at home to Persiba, in a month that would see us lose to Persija and Borneo - but, crucially, we did manage to beat (reigning champions) Arema away from home to strengthen our grip on an 2023 AFC Cup spot. October went much better results-wise as we went from 1 win in 4 to 3 in 5 as we went the year's tenth month undefeated. Unfortunately, in November, our unlikely title hopes were ended as we failed to take advantage of Persib slip-ups before losing heavily to the champions with three matches left. Still, pleasantly, we have continental football for next season and I'm more than happy with that.

 

I actually signed a new contract with Madura United back in July, which was only 7 months and 9 games into my reign so that was a nice shown of confidence from the chairperson - who has since left, as the club received a (minor) takeover. More news off the pitch: We're getting a new stadium! Despite financial issues at the club, they've received planning permission for a new place which will open in early 2024. It will see the club move from Pamekasan to Bangkalan - which is a 2hr drive west to the coast across the Madura Island part of Indonesia.

 

I clearly made the right decision to leave Persiba and then join Madura United. However, to be fair, Persiba themselves had an outstanding season as a promoted team as they came 4th (!), just 5pts behind us. Great to see, they were mid-table for much of the campaign iirc so big credit to my replacement, Bejo Sugiantoro.

 

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Update: Turns out, we don't actually have AFC Cup for 2023.

I got misled by the table graphic, which highlights 2nd place in blue so I thought that meant we had it. Turns out, the table doesn't update live anymore (?) like in past FMs as the second continental spot (after Persib) goes to the cup winners PSM Makassar. Although, third place Arema have also got into AFC Cup somehow, I assume via their loss in the cup final to PSM - so the cup runners-up must get priority over league runners-up… which feels harsh! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Very sad news out of Indonesian football in real life: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-63105945. Thoughts with all those affected.

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Season 3 of the save and season 2 with Madura United. Here's a recap of how 2023 went:

 

In short, this has literally been me pretty much all season long…

It has been an absolute slog to sit through, despite - all in all, considering the club's stature, expectations etc. - it actually being a relatively good season. It's more so the feeling of underwhelm-ent and missed opportunity as you'll soon see.

 

First things first, the start. We began excellently, as we went 12 matches undefeated with 8 victories. Unfortunately, a terrible July run of 2 wins, 1 draw and 4 losses completedly derailed us. That run coincided with a player issue with, iirc, sub forward Andri Faisal. I can't recall the exact fuss, but it was something mundane which evidently hit us for six. We did recover across August and September as we lost just twice across 13 games in all competitions, however our performances were very iffy and we would drop points when our rivals would and win when they would; so no real progress was made, even if we were still in the top 3 or 4 regularly.

 

October was when the season definitively ended hopes-wise, as defeats to Persela and Persib all but confirmed our top two hopes were over. Around this time and a bit before, PSS had come out of nowhere to top the table as we, Persib and others, incl. Arema, were faltering. The fact PSS, of all teams, were 1st made the feeling of annoyance grow higher - along with the lack of impressive performances from us. In November and December, we won 3 out of 5 to secure a 4th place finish - which is actually good for a club like Madura United, who were predicted to come 8th. In the end, PSS actually bottled it as Persib secured back-to-back titles.

 

The biggest disappointment came in the Indonesian Cup. We had received an extremely favourable route to the final, as we avoided any Liga 1 or Liga 2 team across the first, second, third and fourth rounds. In the quarter-finals, we met Liga 2 team Persikabo and shockingly went out over two legs by an aggregate of 2-1. Persib had already been eliminated, so we couldn't have asked for a better run at that competition but sadly, like PSS, we bottled it. PSM Makassar ended up winners, so the cup - like Liga 1 - went to the same winner as it did in 2022.

 

A pretty solid second season at Madura United, even if I didn't enjoy much - if any - of it. We go again in 2024, a year that'll see us open our new stadium over in Bangkalan. We could end up having AFC Cup football for that new era, as Indonesia have been allocated further spots in continental competition and the table has updated to show 4th as a receiver of a spot - but, as seen last season, that isn't accurate it seems. I don't think we do have it, but we might… time will tell.

 

Three last things.

  1. After the season ended I declared interest in the Arema job as their manager was insecure. That didn't lead to anything despite positive media reports, as Putu Gede has remained in the role as ‘stable’. I did fancy a change of scenery, but looks like I'll be remaining with Madura United for next season at least.
  2. I somehow snagged the Manager of the Year award. I guess that shows how good we actually did do this campaign, despite the aforementioned.
  3. My old club, Persiba, were unfortunately relegated this campaign. After that extreme high of 4th in 2022, they go down third bottom in 2023… a case of second season syndrome, perhaps.

 

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Halfway through the 2024 campaign…

…will it finally be our year? I hope so!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

There's always next year, lads. #ProjectWinTheCup

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Season 4 of the save and season 3 with Madura United. Here's a recap of how 2024 went:

 

So, as seen by the prior post, the league was done and dusted if we were being real, so it was full focus on the Indonesian Cup to finally try and secure an AFC Cup spot for Madura United. No matter what, I had already decided (post title race, admittedly) that it was going to be my final campaign as boss of the club, with a move elsewhere (unsure where) a definite for 2025. Could I deliver continental footy for Laskar Sape Kerrab? Let's see…

 

Well, not in the cup. Despite yet another favourable cup draw, we were eliminated from the cup at the semi-finals across two legs by relegated (bottom!) Liga 1 side Barito Putera. What's funnier/frustrating is that days before we secured an (albeit relatively pointless) home and away double against champions Persib; 4-0 (h) and 2-1 (a) respectively, though couldn't muster anything versus the basement boys from Banjarmasin. So very annoying, if entirely predictable, as it means no club trophy for my manager at Madura United.

 

However, miraculously, we only went and got AFC Cup football via the league!

 

 

After going 6 undefeated to end our Liga 1 campaign, we finished 2nd ahead of Arema meaning we get a group stage entry for the AFC Cup; 3rd, as far as I can tell, wouldn't have been enough due to cup winners Bhayangkara placing outside the top three. Unfortunately I won't be here to experience it, but it's nice to give the club something tangible from my manager's reign. Ending on a high note!

 

Onto the next job - wherever that may be. I doubt the Persib or Arema jobs will open up, so therefore a departure out of Indonesia is basically fact, I'll likely avoid Australia, China and South Korea for now and aim for a/the top club in Hong Kong, India, Malaysia or Singapore. Time will tell, though.

 

P.S. An amusing moment: I holiday'd a period before the last game of the season (every year the last game falls randomly like 2 or 3 weeks after the penultimate match) as I was pressed for time and when I returned my manager had signed a new two-year contract with zero pay increase and the compensation clause upped to 90% (from, iirc, 60%). Have I just been the victim of fraud? Cheeky fockers. Forgery is rife, watch out peeps!

 

 

bigmattb28
9 years ago
4 hours ago
1,325

You're back! Not been on here myslef for a while. As always your saves are really intersting. Definitely following mate!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472
By bigmattb28 06 October 2022 - 08:04 AM UTC 

You're back! Not been on here myslef for a while. As always your saves are really intersting. Definitely following mate!

 

Back again, hopefully for longer this time! The fact I'm still into playing the game despite a few frustrating (if still good on paper) seasons is a positive sign.

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Me, literally last post: “I'll likely avoid Australia”.

Me, now:

Australia it, in fact, is! More in-depth post on the way.

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

So, Job 3 of the save sees us take a near 15hr flight from Bangkalan, Indonesia to Newcastle, Australia as we take over A-League side Newcastle (United) Jets. Last season aside, I watched the Aussie top-flight loads but my first proper knowledge of the club, iirc, was due to Emile Heskey's stint there between 2012 and 2014. That legend may be long gone, but Newcastle Jets as a club are, seemingly, largely the same. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

 

I don't believe I've managed in Australia or the A-League before, perhaps once for one of those sortitoutsi community challenges that used to occur but I might be mistaken. I didn't even plan to manage down under in this save, at least not right now, but I had a change of heart. My original plan, as noted before, was to avoid the ‘big three’ of AUS, China and South Korea and go to a ‘smaller’ nation and start adding trophies (second tier one with Persiba aside) to my manager's résumé. However, a few months went by without any interesting jobs and then we got a surprise interview (via application) from the Jets - which I had to take.

 

The interview evidently went well and they sharply offered me the job. I was still undecided though, so I delayed them for around three weeks. A job also opened up in India with I-League team Gokulam Kerala, who were the reigning champions and in the Durand Cup quarter-finals and AFC Cup group stage having just missed out on retaining the league by 5pts. They fit the bill of what I was looking for, though I had a good feeling about Newcastle Jets. What actually swung it in the end were two Rs: reputation and relegation (or lack thereof).

 

The A-League's rep is far higher than the I-League, which is even lower than Indonesia's top division, so it felt like a risk to go to India and, if I failed, my manager's rep would suffer. Alongside that, you also have the fact that the A-League has no relegation so even though Newcastle are one of the weaker teams there is no real risk involved - if I fail, I've still gained experience in a top league which I decided was better long-term - assuming rep works like in Football Manager, I'm just guessing. You could say I bottled a challenge, but that wouldn't be very nice of you (if entirely correct! 😆)

 

 Interestingly, the Melbourne Victory job was also available but they didn't get back to me before Newcastle stopped allowing delays - I didn't want to lose them and I guessed Victory would be out of reach of my manager, but we'll never know if that was a possibility or not.

 

Newcastle Jets, known officially as Newcastle United Jets but I've rarely - if at all - heard them called that by A-League broadcasters etc., are still trophyless since 2008 in what is now 2025, so I'm not expecting any trophies but with the Australia Cup (aka FFA Cup) a thing nowadays that does add an extra chance. I join with just three matches left of the regular season, which will be our last of the season as we cannot qualify for Finals (play-offs). All about prepping for next campaign.

 

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

2024/25, technically my first season as Newcastle Jets manager, is in the books.

 

 

An extremely small sample size and opponents of similar fate to us (i.e. not very good), but it has been a pleasant first three matches in charge - as I ended the club's preceding 6-match losing streak and managed to avoid the wooden spoon of last place.

 

There have been promising signs, the players took on my tactics (in short: 4-2-3-1, basically keep the ball, play slow but tackle hard) onboard immediately. With that noted, the squad does need some tweaking - especially upfront, we don't have an out-and-out striker despite a fairly hefty squad size. There aren't any great strikers on the horizon though, so a punt or two will likely need to be taken.

 

Bring on 2025/26, which begins in just a few months with the Australia Cup - which presumably, à la real life, runs until October/November time before the season starts for real. LFG!

tongey
13 years ago
1 month ago
1,008

Newcastle Jets are a team full of history in the A-League! Success to follow soon I'm sure!! 

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472
By tongey 15 October 2022 - 10:57 AM UTC 

Newcastle Jets are a team full of history in the A-League! Success to follow soon I'm sure!! 

 

Time will tell! I'm near the end of the first full season and, without spoilers, I'm liking my time with the Jets so that's a good thing. The transfer system between A-League clubs (or lack thereof) is, as expected, a bit annoying though!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Season 6 of the save and season 2 with Newcastle Jets. Here's a recap of how 2025-26 went:

 

Such is the one-dimensional set-up of the A-League, the short and sweet question to ask is: Did we make Finals? The answer: no. But we gave it a good shot, especially for a team predicted to finish second bottom.

 

Annoying, that. We fell 2pts short of the play-offs in the end, despite sitting inside the top six all season long (bar one matchday) until the final five games - sod's law and all that.

 

To add to the disappointment, we would've made Finals if we had beat Adelaide United on the final day - but we didn't as we were held to a 0-0 draw, though that was the most predictable thing I had seen with my eyes so far this year. Guess where Adelaide Utd sat? Bottom. As soon as I saw that, I knew we weren't winning - if you could bet on Football Manager, I would've bet every penny I own and I would've done so with supreme confidence. Especially as it had already happened earlier in the season when we drew with, iirc, Perth Glory. One day the game will prove me wrong, but today is not that day. Never change, FM.❤️

 

Way back at the season's start, we also had a good run in the Australia Cup. Though, again somewhat predictably, we dropped out at the semi-final stage to, you'll never guess who, Adelaide United (I'm sensing a pattern). We actually eliminated Brisbane Roar, reigning league champs, in the first round; which was a tad amusing as we had initially been drawn with an obscure lower league team (can't recall who exactly, though I hadn't heard of them despite knowledge of a number of NPL teams) but I immediately got a crash dump so had to restart; I was not happy to see us given Roar on the redraw, but it worked out (albeit pointlessly in the end) I guess.

 

Immediately after the season's end (for us, anyway), I decided to call time on my reign as Newcastle Jets manager. I had already decided a month or two prior to the final day, rejecting two contract offers from the Jets. One of the original reasons (arguably the main one) to come to Australia was to build up my manager's reputation and that's been accomplished - his rep itself has risen by a star and his attributes have gone up nicely too. The A-League is also a rather limiting (if still pleasant) league, so building a club up to challenge is a tad more difficult to do; at least in a non-tedious manner. Therefore, I'm out.

 

I wouldn't be against returning to Oz in the future, though for now the plan is to visit a ‘lesser’ nation with one of their big guns and (hopefully) win trophies.

 

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

How have I managed that? I've somehow blagged my way into, arguably, the best job in Chinese football - having previously only managed in Indonesia's top two divisions and a mid-table A-League team in Australia. I fear this may be an Andrew Amers-Morrison/Andy Morrison-esque situation, nevertheless I'm excited to get started! A more detailed post will be forthcoming.

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Job 4 of the save sees us take on the job at Chinese Super League side Shanghai Port (known as Shanghai SIPG on my game; FM22).

 

I haven't, if I'm honest, a clue how I've managed to get this job, it seems like a massive step from my last post but, from my past personal experience, Football Manager is actually fairly good when it comes to creating realistic job trajectories so who I am to say otherwise.

 

I also took an interview with Guangzhou (aka Guangzhou Evergrande), the other big gun in China (and two-time reigning champions) but Shanghai Port got back to me first and, based on the job interview/expecations and the media expectations, Guangzhou seem to be heading south a bit. E.g. their transfer budget, per the interview, was around (iirc) £57m, whereas at Shanghai I have a dizzying £162m to spend. I penned terms with Shanghai Port in early January 2027.

 

Alternatively, and amusingly, things could've went entirely different. After leaving Newcastle Jets in May 2026, within a few months I applied and received an offer from top Hong Kong club Kitchee. I was literally seconds away from accepting the job as it fitted my plan of joining a lesser nation and scooping up the trophies; of which Hong Kong football has plenty. However, upon thinking about it further and checking the league rankings/reputation levels I decided HK was a bit too much of a drop to take. So I rejected them, but if I didn't have that literal last second rethink I would've ended up at Kitchee - thank f#@k I didn't, eh?

 

In the many months between that Kitchee moment and jonining Shanghai Port, I didn't receive any interesting proposals. So I set myself a deadline of the end of 2026 to find a job in either Malaysia or India or a return to Indonesia as those leagues had less of a drop rank/rep-wise - a few problems with that, though, as the only jobs I wanted from those countries were Johor Darul Ta'zim (MAS) or Persib (IDN), whereas there isn't currently a dominant club in India - so it was a needle in a haystack and then some to get one of those jobs.

 

January 2027 came and I was about to change my plans and aim for a mid-table Chinese or South Korean top-flight job to keep my manager's rep boosted, but then all this happened with Shanghai Port.

 

Shanghai Port haven't had the greatest of times in recent seasons. Their last Super League title came in the 2024 (also won 2023) campaign, having missed the 2025 title by just 3pts in 2nd and the 2026 title by 15pts in 3rd. In 2026, however, they did win the FA Cup, having won the Super Cup in 2025. For my debut season, the club will be playing in those competitions as well as in the AFC Champions League (group stage). In terms of squad, former Chelsea man Oscar remains at the club at the age of 35.

 

Excited to get started!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Mini update:

Into July 2027 and the season is going nicely as we sit atop the Chinese Super League with Shanghai Port by 11pts; though the teams below have a game or two in hand. I signed Stoke City man Tyrese Campbell and he is currently sitting on 27 goals in 27 games! More like Tyrese Haaland, amirite? Elsewhere, two-time reigning champions and team that I could've joined Guangzhou are fourth bottom! I mentioned I thought they were heading south, but I wasn't expecting quite that far a drop!

 

However, as ever, there is a catch. I've been threatened with the sack (yes, really) by the chairperson due to broken promises with fringe first-teamers/youngsters who have wanted loans but there's been literal no interest in them. It it happens again I'll be gone, which would actually be quite funny to be fair.

 

Will I see out the season? Time will tell… 😨

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Don't fret! I've not been sacked (yet) …

Just wanted to note that Tyrese Campbell (son of Kevin, fyi) now has 30 goals in 28 games, my man just got a 19-minute hat-trick away to Wuhan; and it's only half-time as I type here. This man is too good for the CSL. 🔥

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Shanghai Port's first-ever AFC Champions League final.

…and, aside from a few saves with Manchester United back in the day, this is the (iirc) first time I've ever reached a Champions League final (anywhere) in a journeyman save of mine. Not expecting to win, but I'd love it if we beat them, love it!

Skinner_
8 years ago
3 hours ago
1,472

Always next year!*

*unless we get kicked out for failing FFP - more on that in my more in-depth season review, coming later on Thursday - as it's 5am now and I sure need some sleep! 

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