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Discussion
Oh. Sorry. I think you mis-understood what I said.

The EU wanted to protect the steel industry (including in this country) from cheap Chinese steel dumps. That would have propped up our industry and would probably have lead to Tata steel staying. The UK fought tooth and nail to stop them from doing that for over 3 years, and in 2016, as I'm sure you're aware, that led to Tata steel pulling out, at which point the UK government refused to bail out the steel industry in the same way they did the banks.

The crisis of manufacturing in this country, like most other things, is entirely a problem of our own making.


Agreed I know its of our own making, as I said we buy from abroad when we need not do so.
Surely keeping more manufacturing here has got to be good for our economy.
I am no politician of course nor am I the most intelligent but come on, too much relying on others when we surly could do some of it ourselves.....or am I wrong?
Oh. Sorry. I think you mis-understood what I said.

The EU wanted to protect the steel industry (including in this country) from cheap Chinese steel dumps. That would have propped up our industry and would probably have lead to Tata steel staying. The UK fought tooth and nail to stop them from doing that for over 3 years, and in 2016, as I'm sure you're aware, that led to Tata steel pulling out, at which point the UK government refused to bail out the steel industry in the same way they did the banks.

The crisis of manufacturing in this country, like most other things, is entirely a problem of our own making.

And on the topic, the issue I assume you're talking about is the Bombardier/Siemans bid for the Thameslink contract. As far as I'm aware, the main problem was the process that was set out by the Labour government that the Tories followed (they said they would change it afterwards, but in typical Tory fashion didn't), again it was largely a problem of our own making.


How dare you!

The UK Govt, has done everything possible to save steel. They've even allowed buyers to walk away from the pension scheme. If that's not a victory for the workers, then I don't know what is.
Agreed I know its of our own making, as I said we buy from abroad when we need not do so.
Surely keeping more manufacturing here has got to be good for our economy.
I am no politician of course nor am I the most intelligent but come on, too much relying on others when we surly could do some of it ourselves.....or am I wrong?


I really don't know the answer. It's complicated. And if you spent most of your life as a steel worker you probably know more about it this than me, so forgive me if my comments aren't very insightful. But the problem with our industry is that we need it to employ people, pay people, house people, feed people etc... etc... which means when it comes to manufacturing something like steel or other raw materials it makes it really expensive compared to parts of the world where they pay people substantially less like China.

So yeah, while we could introduce protectionism and pay people really well to make steel for domestic uses (providing we can afford that as a country) in order for the steel industry to boom and provide a substantial amount of jobs we need to export too, and as soon as we export then we're competing against places like China which then puts a squeeze on wages and jobs as the companies try and cut costs to be competitive.

The best thing we could do would be to join a large, rich, trading block that agrees to buy our exports and not import from outside of that block. But we just voted to leave a block that could do that largely on the back of votes from people who benefit the most out of it so what do I know?

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I've generally been supportive of him. It's been totally unfair when the Sun attack him and 'establishment' Blairite Labour undermine him. But the idea of Labour losing in the North East is unthinkable.

Corbyn seemed to absolutely half step this campaign. Offering nothing or attempting to motivate or persuade his built in audience. Sadiq Khan also sounded like an itdiot.

I think Labour are done. Lib Dems are done. Moderate Tories seems like the only option, save us Ruth Davidson.

Generally I agree with more than I don't, but he seems to be stuck between firefighting media and Blairites trying to destroy him, and hope people will listen to a more nuanced position in a time when it feel like it no longer exists.
noir et blanc armée

Read my FM Career A Little Bit Of History Changing

It's not that I disagree with him, it's that he seems inept. He made no attempt to offer any sort of leadership,

Either he's inept and will be ineffective to in an election. Or he is a politician who has kept out of it to not alianate himself from the working class - which isn't going to work when you're seen as the alternative to the elite.

It's not that I disagree with him, it's that he seems inept. He made no attempt to offer any sort of leadership,

Either he's inept and will be ineffective to in an election. Or he is a politician who has kept out of it to not alianate himself from the working class - which isn't going to work when you're seen as the alternative to the elite.


This, this, a thousand times this!
Sometimes you have to stand in the shadows; to see the light.

I'm pretty sure Corbyn is anti-EU at heart, he was only on the remain side because it would be politically impossible for him to favour brexit and remain Labour leader.

People on the hard left like him almost universally hate the EU, they just do it for different reasons and with a different rhetoric than the likes of UKIP.
I'm pretty sure Corbyn is anti-EU at heart, he was only on the remain side because it would be politically impossible for him to favour brexit and remain Labour leader.

People on the hard left like him almost universally hate the EU, they just do it for different reasons and with a different rhetoric than the likes of UKIP.


I don't think so. I think Corbyn is the dictionary definition of a reluctant remainer. Someone that dislikes what the EU has become but recognises its importance. Of all the arguments advanced by the leaders of political parties his comes closest to how I feel myself.

But its just not a vote winner is it? And its, understandably, a message thats failed to get heard over the amount of crap everyone else came out with.

I also don't think he's got anywhere near the political nous to play both sides like being suggested which is probably not a great indication for his future prospect as Labour leader. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he'll be devastated we left, but I do genuinely think he wanted us to stay.

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I'm sorry he was elected to represent us. The genuine working class - but the people who will be hid hardest by Brexit are the people who overwhelmingly voted to leave it - Wales and the North East etc. Sunderland is about as pro-Labour as you can possible get, and Nissan will pull out, there could potentially be cuts to the public sector and possibly employment rights being a thing of the past. If any of these happens, Corbyn will be seen as smug Islington plastic leftie.

I genuinely think Labour is done in England, gone the way of the Lib Dems. I think there will be scepticism of a left-wing candidate, and it's clear a 'Blairite' candidate won't get popular support. I fear we're all Tory's now if we like it or not, and the split will be between the Ruth Davidson's of this world and the Boris' and the Farage's
I'm sorry he was elected to represent us. The genuine working class - but the people who will be hid hardest by Brexit are the people who overwhelmingly voted to leave it - Wales and the North East etc. Sunderland is about as pro-Labour as you can possible get, and Nissan will pull out, there could potentially be cuts to the public sector and possibly employment rights being a thing of the past. If any of these happens, Corbyn will be seen as smug Islington plastic leftie.

I genuinely think Labour is done in England, gone the way of the Lib Dems. I think there will be scepticism of a left-wing candidate, and it's clear a 'Blairite' candidate won't get popular support. I fear we're all Tory's now if we like it or not, and the split will be between the Ruth Davidson's of this world and the Boris' and the Farage's


I agree with you mostly, and I sympathise. I just don't know if I can blame Corbyn because of a bunch of Turkey's who voted for Christmas. Regardless of the campaign Labour ran, we knew what would happen post-Brexit, we knew that growing discontent in the North East was pushing people towards UKIP and we knew that the newspapers and politicians had blamed the EU for decades for problems that the EU had not caused.

We also know that, after years of being told it was the EU's fault, people reacted strongly when they were told in the three months up to the referendum that it wasn't, and that it was seen as a protest vote against the establishment. If Labour had more vociferously backed Remain I can see it having the opposite effect: 'Well fuck you, you haven't helped us for years, why should we trust you now'. Besides, Corbyn actually led an active campaign and mostly said the right things (stupid immigration comments aside), but the press (who have slaughtered him since day one) ignored him in favour of the internal Tory party divide.

Corbyn has to go. It's drastically unfair, he's a principled man with mostly sensible left wing views who's been undermined by constant infighting by a party thats refused to get behind him, and his most high profile intrusions into most peoples lives have been a result of Labour's infighting and inconsequential shit (does it really matter if he doesn't sing the anthem?) its clear that Labour will never be an electoral force under him. Corbyn's policies could have been exactly what the North East needs, but any Labour leader left of centre faces an unwinable battle against the Murdoch press (like Red Ed), its no surprise that the only elected Labour PM for 40 years moved to the centre and cozied up to Murdoch.

Labour won't get wiped out, but they're in turmoil (more because of SNP wiping them out in Scotland than UKIP though) and have a party membership ridiculously out of step with the concerns of Labour voters – for example, Hilary Benn is an excellent orator and would do well, I think, in a world of style over substance, but he's little more than a Tory wearing a red rosette and won't get the leadership nod – this will be coupled with the backlash against Westminster when we end up either still in the EU, or in a free movement EEA style deal that Conservatives favour which will see UKIP surge further still in their heartlands.

What can we do? We're in a country now where rampant xenophobia can be dressed up as 'just caring about immigration' and defended leading to people who actually have legitimate concerns about immigration unable to express their legitimate fears without being tarred with the same brush. We're in a country now where an election was won of the promise of spending £350m a week that didn't exist on the NHS and cutting immigration, only for those claims to be backtracked upon a day later and the stories of racist abuse people have suffered in the wake off Brexit because people feel empowered to do so having 'taken their country back' should chill people to the bone.

I don't think I recognise this country anymore, I don't know how it happened, but the caring, tolerant society that welcomed people and always tried to do the right thing is disappearing in front of my eyes. Maybe it had already gone and I'm only just realising it now, and it would have been equally true regardless of the outcome of the vote. Fuck knows.

Anyway, this turned into an unrelated rant that has nothing to do with what I originally wanted to say or talk about and I don't expect anyone to agree with me but whatever, I needed to get it off my chest.
I know this topic is going a bit off the subject somewhat, but Hilary Benn has been sacked by Corbyn. Which in my eyes is great news because Hilary is nothing like his dad, he's just a thundercunt.

Half the shadow cabinet is expected to resign too, the shadow health secretary resigned about 30 mins ago, she tried to get Corbyn to blame the junior doctors, so she can fuck off too.

This is obviously going to heap even more pressure on Corbyn, I know he should have done more throughout the referendum but I'm very much pro-Corbyn and I really hope he doesn't resign.

The more Blairites leaving Labour the better.

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First opinion poll in Scotland post-referendum says 59% now favour independence.
A very good Guardian comment:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl1S8n_WEAAWWwm.jpg:orig
Lol online petitions. They never do anything of note.
That's only going to be a few thousand odd signatures, it's still going to have over 2.5M at least. The best thing about it is the petition was made by a Brexit supporter a month ago because he thought Remain would win, but now that Remain supporters have signed it he's annoyed. Just brilliant. (I just noticed that was mentioned in the BBC article, but still, the hypocrisy is just beautiful)

Sturgeon has said she might ask the Scottish parliament to veto the UK leaving the EU, which they have the power to do.



Well, our country is pretty fucked.

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Would be daft of Sturgeon to veto it, it would lose her chance of Scottish Independence as then whomever is in charge at Westminster would just veto that in the petty way politicians go about their business.

I honestly don't see us leaving the EU disappointingly, the whole referendum seems to have just been a political coup to remove the major party leaders. Boris won't do it if he gets in, nor Gove.

It's a shame, because if the choice then becomes a UKIP government headed by Farage but we get to leave the EU or someone else but we remain then I'd have to vote remain. I can't see how the other parties can elect someone more vile than Farage and I could never vote for UKIP.

What a farce. We actually have a chance to do the right thing, the country even turns out to vote, but in the end none of it matters because it was all party politics.

Should have been obvious from the start I suppose as Boris was always going to set himself up against Cameron whichever option that meant "supporting". Shame Corbyn couldn't have been allowed to show his true colours and support the leave campaign, then we wouldn't have all been branded racists! Would have taken the bloody limelight of Farage too and allowed for a proper debate.
Sometimes you have to stand in the shadows; to see the light.

That's only going to be a few thousand odd signatures, it's still going to have over 2.5M at least. The best thing about it is the petition was made by a Brexit supporter a month ago because he thought Remain would win, but now that Remain supporters have signed it he's annoyed. Just brilliant. (I just noticed that was mentioned in the BBC article, but still, the hypocrisy is just beautiful)

Sturgeon has said she might ask the Scottish parliament to veto the UK leaving the EU, which they have the power to do.



Well, our country is pretty fucked.


I've not seen anything that says they have?
http://www.liveonlineradio.net/wp-content/themes/Music_Covers/images/music2.gif -------- http://rs648.pbsrc.com/albums/uu204/JeWeL1980_photos/7505xjc54lf3np.gif~c200 -------- http://www.liveonlineradio.net/wp-content/themes/Music_Covers/images/music2.gif
Scotland Act of 1998 apparently.

tbh don't reckon article 50 is going to be triggered.
I've not seen anything that says they have?


Page 21, Section 70.

"We asked Sir David whether he thought the Scottish Parliament would have to give its consent to measures extinguishing the application of EU law in Scotland. He noted that such measures would entail amendment of section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, which binds the Scottish Parliament to act in a manner compatible with EU law, and he therefore believed that the Scottish Parliament’s consent would be required. He could envisage certain political advantages being drawn from not giving consent."
Scotland Act of 1998 apparently.

tbh don't reckon article 50 is going to be triggered.


In fairness to Cameron, I think he's played an absolute blinder on this front.
I am having visions of Boris Johnson complaining about the stupid electorate voting wrong. He's currently like when they realise Springtime for Hitler is a hit - a tweet I saw earlier.


Sick of the Guardian though - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/david-cameron-resign-teflon-cockiness - feels like they write the articles first.
Pound's hit a 31 year low.

Good job it was all scaremongering.
Labour holding a vote of no confidence in Corbyn, honestly i can see why but at the same time he's pretty much the only politician to come out of Brexit with any real credibility. Was clear he's not a fan of the EU but also understands how important it is to us so couldn't really back either side without looking a complete hypocrite, Boris on the other hand...
Is the vote of no confidence voted for by shadow cabinet ministers or Labour party members? If it's the latter I doubt he has anything to worry about given the volume of supporters who signed up to make him leader. I'm sure some of them will have become disillusioned since but he surely would have more than enough to coast through that vote.

If it's by ministers however he is fucked by the looks of things.

Sadly it's far from an isolated incident, http://buff.ly/298jfWc
Hopefully the spate of racist incidents being reported in the media are just a knee jerk reaction to Brexit, but it just feels as if the right is on the rise not just in the UK but Europe as a whole.
So... Boris isn't standing for PM after being stabbed in the front by Gove, who is standing despite saying on at least 4 different occasions he doesn't think he should be PM, while the Bank of England are preaching doom.

Just an average day in British politics, clearly... when will it end?
noir et blanc armée

Read my FM Career A Little Bit Of History Changing

Boris doesn't want to captain the sinking ship that he punched a giant hole in the side of. strange that.
Boris helped fuck this country up hoping Cameron would sort it all out, Cameron announced his resignation which basically defeated Boris because he had no idea how to clean his mess up.

Now we're going to have Theresa May as our PM, who will be like Thatcher x10.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmO_GqzWEAQqHwh.jpg
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