JosephVY4-2-2-2GegenPress

Sorry we don't have any mods actively dedicated to the tactics section so this has been missed.

At a quick glance you're right these do look identical. I'll load it up into FM and double check when i'm at home.

@JosephVy could you please respond to this?

The only thing that change is the guy had the time to change the name of it, i don't know what the deal to do even something like that.

It's just disgusting, but the funny thing if you guys can't really “control” this section you should change it. It's full of freeze runned all over. 

That's why i even stopped to post here, it could be a cool tool but it happened that people are so greedy in their mind to even cheat their way here.

Since i know what i am talking about i can even call all of them out, no problem to me, but it should be your “job” not really mine.

From me, i am not even mad at the guy, i am more mad how the thing were handled, i did reported that like 5 months ago. Now is a bit too late. You can even let Joseph free to do craps like that for what i do care.  Put an hold on the section if you can't really handle it, because things like that are just abused and i repeat if you need prof which runs are 100% freezed or cheated don't hesitate to ask, the list is very long. 🙂

@Delicious The Assembler I realise it's frustrating. There's very little we can do to validate uniqueness of tactics ourselves. There are 1,069 tactics posted on FM Arena, 3,423 on Steam, 467 at FM Base, 535 at FMScout then god knows how many more posted on Discord, other forums and foreign fansites. It's literally impossible. SI don't give us anyway to analyse the contents of a .fmf file despite multiple requests over years. The only way is to eyeball screenshots.

In terms of not replying to your message, it's unfortunate that it was missed but it's bound to happen when there's thousands of comments. You can always tag specific people and comments in the support and feedback section always get a response. Where as a random comment in the tactic section on a 5 month old tactic is more likely to get missed. But someone saw your comment on YouTube today and immediately bought it to the rest of the mods attention.

Please try and remember that this is all a hobby for everyone and it's nobodies “job” to do anything. I personally just enjoy coding more than anything else, so I coded a way for people to share human tests as opposed to the automated tests that other sites where doing. I put alot of hours into that, but I don't go through and read all the comments or download every tactic myself because I don't really have the time or the motivation from enjoyment. I am certainly not going to compare every single upload to 4000+ tactics uploaded elsewhere. I don't think it's far to say this section should be put on hold because neither I nor any of the other mods are willing to do that.

We are always open to mod applications if anyone is enthusiastic enough about tactics to be able to spot these sort of things easily.

because things like that are just abused and i repeat if you need prof which runs are 100% freezed or cheated don't hesitate to ask, the list is very long

And yes if you have things like that please do share it. There's no point keeping anything like that to yourself.

I have just reached out to FM Arena to ask if there's something we can do in terms of an API to compare tactics, although even that wouldn't be perfect. This is the email I sent:

Hey,
It is a hobby when it doesn't imply that someone else, use this platform to reach viewers, to cheat it out their way on this “ranking”, to translate them to viewer on youtube and similar. Since Sortitoutsi is used for many other “mods” then tactics at all, still the viewers pool ain't even bad, so people just abused the fact that there is none really controlling those “runs”, that should've been called simulation and not “test” is another story.
I wouldn't consider someone doing someone something like downloading a tactic from another site, changing name and post here a “hobby”, for many of us is even a business and since as you said we can't really protect the work of it we choose the “platform” where we do believe we can get more views possible,translated on youtube/site/patreon etc, i do realize my self that is an hard task, but if you guys offer a “service” that can't be controlled how a “content” creator can even protect his/her self from stuff like that? Literally this Joseph, downloaded the best 424 on FM-Arena(at the time) and changed the name of it. I don't even care about what he did, problem is it was allowed to stay online after many reports and believe me if i see no response from here, do you believe i would chase after that forever?
Immagine if i did with any of the mods/data pack(idk) here and just claim that are mine, i can do that, none is really stopping me from doing that it seem, or even worst no-one really cares. do you believe the creators will not care? That's the message you giving around. Since we  can't control it, live with it, okay my dude, very cool story.

this video triggered me :

 Joseph came out very clean and very unpunished. Sorti came out in another way, the “cheat” place to don't say meme tactics place.
Those are the feedbacks i am receiving regarding this section.

it's not about API or anything else, if the guy rebuild it from ground 0 can bypass it.

So or you find a way to control the flow of the tactics are posted in here, or i do suggest you to put on hold it. Why? Because it will literally generate you problems, since you(staff) believe doing a video with “MOST SUCCESSFUL TACTICS FM23****" is something will not jump to eyes it's very delusional.
While writing this wall of text i am even checking this joseph other tactics and guess what? I would even check those if i were in you 🙂

Guess isn't even needed to me to share any of my tactics in here, since Joseph took care of it.

Btw a fast method would just to check on FM-Arena the best “shapes”, very easy will take you around 5 minutes per tactic, if you are not willing to do that, build an IA bot or crawlers. You can just compare the release date etc. Arena got their own mods to check those stuff, otherwise will be a mess over a mess.
Point is i wouldn't even mind if at least this literally piece of garbage just fake tweaked it. He even get a dedicated video on it! 

Should i start this method as well, might be profitable,no i am the idiot that tested over test on Arena and my own test league to let Josephboy to get viewers here 🙂
  

You are not talking to someone that is mad or something, don't come at me with Hobby “feelings” because we both know that's literally a bullshit. IF sortitoutsi doesn't care to monetize is another story, if you believe for all those random content creators is  “hobby” you are very wrong. If you believe this tactic section is cool, let it, for me is a free memes generator on my discord. In a way or another i will get something out of it.





 

@Delicious The Assembler There's alot to unpack from that.

wouldn't consider someone doing someone something like downloading a tactic from another site, changing name and post here a “hobby”

don't come at me with Hobby “feelings” because we both know that's literally a bullshit. IF sortitoutsi doesn't care to monetize is another story, if you believe for all those random content creators is  “hobby” you are very wrong

(1) When I said this is a “hobby” I was talking about the staff/moderators of the site. I was trying to remind you that we all have limited time and interests because we have other jobs, families, social lives etc. In no way was I saying stealing a tactic was okay because it's a hobby.

i do realize my self that is an hard task, but if you guys offer a “service” that can't be controlled how a “content” creator can even protect his/her self from stuff like that

(2) I didn't mean to say it can't be controlled, only that it's difficult. The same tactic could be posted to FM Base, FM Scout, FM Arena, Steam Workshop, SI Games forums with the same issues. To find the best way to control it requires everyone working together to try and achieve that not shouting at one person to do it.

it was allowed to stay online after many reports and believe me if i see no response from here, do you believe i would chase after that forever

(3) I can only see the one report from July in this thread and the YouTube comment from today. Can you point me to the other ones that have been missed? If we are regularly missing such comments that's frustrating and i'll try and come up with a solution. But for the most part people post in the feedback section and/or tag myself or other mods so things don't get missed.

Immagine if i did with any of the mods/data pack(idk) here and just claim that are mine, i can do that, none is really stopping me from doing that it seem, or even worst no-one really cares. do you believe the creators will not care? That's the message you giving around. Since we  can't control it, live with it, okay my dude, very cool story.

(4) In no way have I said live with it. I've been a little defensive because you seem to be suggesting I should be able to magically prevent it when that feels impossible. But this is the first i've heard of it this particular case (although of course i'm not naive to think it's not happening regularly) and i've responded in detail and reached out to you on here as soon as I became aware.

Right now i'm not rushing into any action i'm doing research. I tagged Joseph and asked him to respond before banning him because I think that's a fair thing to do. I've also spent the last few hours writing scripts to download every tactic from FM Arena, FM Scout and FM Base to try and see if I can get a quick count on how many there are that are similar to ones on here. I've literally spent my entire day today so far on just this one thing, so please don't accuse me of not caring.

this video triggered me :

(5) To be clear the people who run the YouTube are fairly independent from the site (i.e. they rarely post on the forums). I had no personal hand in that video. It would be ideal if every creator went and verified the legitimacy of each tactic they downloaded and tested but it's also not that surprising that they don't always do that.

Btw a fast method would just to check on FM-Arena the best “shapes”, very easy will take you around 5 minutes per tactic, if you are not willing to do that, build an IA bot or crawlers. You can just compare the release date etc. Arena got their own mods to check those stuff, otherwise will be a mess over a mess.

(6) That's awesome! I wasn't aware of that. Hopefully they respond to my email and share those mods so everyone can integrate these sorts of checks. Do you have some links to more info about them? I've had a look throughout the site but can't find anything.

There are also some interesting threads here and here discussing how to handle plagiarism. I haven't finished reading them both yet but i'm sure they'll have some good ideas. I will likely make our own similar thread to garner ideas, right now i'm busy looking into how easy it is to automatically detect changes via code.

However it should be noted that FM Arena's approach seems to be to post publicly in that one forum and there has only been two threads and nothing was done to remove the accused tactics in either case so it's not necessarily an approach to follow.

Hey,
I will reply to points :

1) That's what i was refering to, if you can't control something but coming out if none is willing to do that we let it as it is pretty bad communication to me.
2) I am not shouting to none, i am telling you that you need to use a human or something else to do that or you can create a tactic test league like Arena/FM-Base (nowdays is dead) it could be a interesting investement of time, i have mine as well, but i do test only what i wanna test out.
3) i did report it even on my personal thread and on youtube and here was the same date the report. I didn't report it today, Arderz found that today on youtube, still, it was late response on every case, but i do understand i could've pushed it on a better flow, but as i said i wouldn't care that much on first case. 

4) Mate, he posted it 16 Feb,understand your self that is kinda frustating,whatsover you imply, this post got 100k views with a tactic of mine, it's just stupid however we wanna see that. And it isn't the only case as i said you can check his tactics he literally copy/paste most of them or minus tweak. He could've solved all this shitshow by giving me some credits or re-direct to me something. Since i know how this thing work out i just asking to people to change Tactical style and provide some credits, this wasn't the first or last case i've found on internet. 
5) i couldn't possibily know that, it's called sortitoutsi youtube so ain't really indipendent… we go to square 1 that someone or something need to check the source of the tactics, but still you can bypass a bot pretty easy, if a guy like joseph got his time to change just the name of it, means he was sure don't get found-out. Why he did that in this literally stupid way is just a mistery to me. 
6) FN-Arena is corcened about the tactics are posted on their site, the cases you talking about weren't really confirmed and the “creator” didn't even care since as we know even he do like to do that to time to time. But he is big hot fish so none dare to fight him i guess. 🙂
They have their moderators, i don't think they developtment anything with IA, but i am working on it for my project, more to find out little ninja warriors is more for reading Tactics etc. And i don't believe they would share anything to anyone, they really developt crazy automatic tactic test. I did my way on python, but for example i am still wondering how to export data from every run in a clean way, at the moment i do just develop a script reading the images etc and need to work how to auto-post into the future site, will make it live for FM24. But most likely i have a dedicated machine doing JUST that kind of job. It's not easy task to work without API, but literally about that i have no clue, around it's totaly a mistery since anyone keep any info for their self. API would be great to extrapolate the data on every run and check if Players were frozen/etc. 

Still, on Arena the community is working around to protect each works, even if they do minus tweaks i don't care, i do care when people like this joseph acting like they are smarter then anyone else,still i have no clue why he did that.  There is not even need to ban him, i would prefer to check him, literally he is a fan i need to protect him.
As i said you can just compare the tactics and date of release, rest are just excuses. He could've literally just make some ninja tweaks but he decided that way.


Here you can check the link on my google sheet :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tsd92uwrMYFvJTiUopAMokEuqLl0qGe37ljbtcCEG_Q/edit#gid=1841143648

the tactics under 23.5 tabs were tested all on automatizzated way, means human behavior didn't interfee in any way, that's the only way to keep a clean and legit place.

There are cases of even cheated runs on famous discords, so i am not suprised it happend in here as well, where people can get free adv.

Literally, you can even ban this guy, he will just remake another account and doing the same thing if you can't control it. Today is me, if toworrow is another dude, maybe he will not handle it on the same way. Still the idea is even nice, but since you believe people are “legit” doing simulation you are totaly on the wrong bynary.

I can test live all the top tactics are not from my pool if they reach 45 points on average will be a miracle. But from those simulation they are the god-incarnate.

Like you said it's very difficult and people can just create a new account if we ban them etc. I want to wait to see if he replies to this before doing anything but if you're okay with it I can change it over to your name and your file so you get the credit?

I will also look into adding a simple and clear “report” button so comments like yours don't get missed.

I did my way on python, but for example i am still wondering how to export data from every run in a clean way, at the moment i do just develop a script reading the images etc and need to work how to auto-post into the future site, will make it live for FM24. But most likely i have a dedicated machine doing JUST that kind of job. It's not easy task to work without API, but literally about that i have no clue, around it's totaly a mistery since anyone keep any info for their self.

I'm also working on an automated testing league and have been collaborating with Luigi from FM Base (he also formally ran mrltactics). It is very difficult as you say and very expensive to run a virtual machine or have a dedicated one at a home. If you would like to work together and share knowledge that would be great.

Being able to extract all the details of a tactic such as player instructions would help people who play on devices that don't allow imports such as XBox as well as help detect plagiarism. Right now we're focusing on using OCR for it.

That's why you need something(human or bot) activitely know top shape around the web, i mean i just reconize my work but still, i couldn't possibly know if he did tweak some PI (random example, you can even fake that), he could've literally made a minus tweak like he did to another tactic he posted here.

I don't care about “credits”, point never been that, after some many time it's just useless at this point, i just don't like as i said people acting smart-ass like this guy is doing in here, the point is i didn't get mad at him but towards sortitoutsi,because for the reason i said before, the one lost “reputation” ain't the random Joseph-kid but the Sortitoutsi allowing stuff like happening, i know ain't easy, but that's why i said before you find a solution and let people use this platform for not really legit reason,put on hold it,the tool is really nice idea, the way humans using it is totaly wrong and just abusing something that should be a tool in order to help people to get a decent tactic. I just know that FM-Base Test league is just wrong and CPU consuming, i can make with mine a run (360 games in 10 minutes on automatizzated way) and 5 if i manually test.

After that it's all a python scripts over and over, if tactic reach 45+ it will get additional 5 runs till a point of 3600 games “possible”, that's why i get mad when people abuse data of others, because i've spent moneys on my machine and i guess even FM-Arena got a dedicated server or something like that and people just download material and re-upload it w/o even giving a proper credit, could understand if was asking moneys but that's not even the case…

My main problem is i have no clue how to read a .FMF files outside of FM, that's would've been solved all the problems regarding plagiarsim and stuff. 
For now are just machine learning “readers”, even curious how Base and Arena made their Tactic-Filtrer, i am making it working on “green pixels” immagine 🙂)
But unlikely there is very little material that you can find to works on, like how to make fixed schedule to make even faster the test league (arena like) would solve many,time consuming problems. I do hope that on FM24 they will let those useless videos skippable since at moment if i do remove them i will get infinite errors… and just those are like 50 second lost each run. But believe me, if Arena did 1k tactics test i did like 500 in total i am pretty sure that another site can start to make their own test league to bring some fresh air as well, i am running a business, even tho testing is an hobby, but when i see stuff like that it really hurts my nerve.

Main point is to let “humans” do the less possible regarding something with a Rank, since they will just try to cheat their way to the top. Like what happened here and even to other famous platform. That's why i did learn on fly python and now working to make a site where to upload the tactics data etc. But still if i see people interested i will let the test machine even live streaming on discord so they can check everything is okay.

The report button will be helpful, but if they storming in group like i did notice here, it still very hard, and still you can't really know if they “simulated” a tactic 10 times and pick best/perfect one, they will be indeed climb the rank here, but they will fall off when people play them and that's is happening alot nowdays.

Still what Joseph did is the worst thing someone could possible do, but if you can't or it's too complicated to handle that, there is not even reason to ban him/change name of tactics and stuff since the porpuse of those is to get views,now FM23 in most likley 30 days is going to the trashcan,i would've cared 3 months ago.

@Delicious The Assembler by the way here's the response from FM Arena, if you want an example of “We don't care” I think this is closer to it than my own response…

Also you didn't respond about working together on the testing league?

Well, I agree to disagree about that as well, but I can assure you stuff like this case never happened to arena, since there is a community behind it that's more active I guess on this regard, but it's true that is a shit storm and that's why I said that this Joseph could've just minus tweaked in order to make at least the doubt out of it. 

There is no copyright for this material, is more community-care, it's sad that this guy got the attention he doesn't deserve but as I said the problem might be multiple, if I contact any arena stuff at least they will reply at you ASAP, so maybe the report button can help it as well. But still if nobody care, doesn't mean is right, there was even a similar case with Zealand and Ebfm, will try to find the video, it was literally a shit storm but both of them came out good out of it. But literally it's a similar case, one just shared data training from the other, exactly the same. Zealand came out with a funny excuse, but It was literally beyond it. 

This case is pretty similar, this guy just changed names of many of my tactics and posted it here and since providing a rank with simulation is really easy to cheat it. 

Believe me I just need 5-6 frozen run and you would see all my tactics on the top of it.

Regarding test leagues, my knowledge of the editor is pretty basic, I am looking for someone who could make a fixed calendar schedule(advance rules) in order to make test team a, b,c,d facing only IA teams and IA teams only facing test teams, this will maximize the speed of It for many factors. If you have any clue about that we can collaborate on it. Example we can prepare a sorti test and i will build mine. 

I have to rebuild the league anyway, want to try different approach on players, staff setup etc. 

If you know how Luigi extrapolate the data, would be cool as well, I am using a python script for it, but it got some problems sometimes to read - 1,1 - 5,5,0 numbers. Will run more test once FM24 come out

Shame on @JosephVy for stealing this tactic and even more shame for not responding to the accusations. Also that FM-Arena e-mail hurts to read, horrific spelling and grammar.