Old Trafford Lounge

http://babb.telegraph.co.uk/2014/08/van-gaals-philosophy-begins-to-take-shape-still-not-great/

I know this will go down like a lead balloon with some on here, but this is a pretty good account of whats happening.

Sorry but that whole piece was just awful.

If you ignore the authors writing style, which is painful, the rest of it is fine, and is whats happening. I mentioned the stuff about Fletcher in the other thread earlier today.

Lead balloon indeed.

A good manager will adapt to his squad eventually. It's clear LVG doesn't have the players at his disposal to employ this system in an effective way. Persisting with this system with these players will benefit no one at all, if he even managers to keep his job if such form and performances persist deeper into the season.

While it's clear the quality in defence is a huge issue, the slowness of the attacking players United have also exploits the faults with this style. Mata, Rooney and RVP have no pace between them. When all three are on the pitch together the opposition defence press more. Without having genuine wing backs in the 11, there is no run.

In a league that can be extremely quick the room for error is marginal. There is a huge importance placed upon organisation and being in position. Something that is still requiring a lot of work.

Rene is apparently coming back. Please be true.

Just like Mourinho did by selling everyone who didn't fit.

But yeah, the problems the lack of pace, but it does hit the nail on the head with the lack of movement as well. This is a problem that has far preceded Van Gaal, Moyes and really went back a long way into the Ferguson era and is one that a coach would really have to sort out one way or another to get anywhere with the squad regardless of the formation. It's not really the fault of the 3-5-2 as it is the fault of whats gone wrong with the squad.

Certainly under Ferguson's last few years the football we played could generously be termed 'shit on a stick', this isn't a new development to absolve Van Gaal from blame, but it was actually the reason for some relative optimism when Ferguson left. Had we nailed that appointment (even appointed Van Gaal then) the team would better be able to actually adapt to playing some proper football rather than relying on an incredibly well nurtured winning mentality, and the psychological effect of teams being beaten before they actually played us.

Since then, Moyes eroded that because he simply did nothing to address the issue, if anything the football regressed, became slower and became more braindead. He entrenched the culture of mediocrity amongst our squad players and was affected by some sort of paralysis in terms of actually making decisions. All the while, whilst one team realised that if you actually had a go at us you'd probably get something everyone started doing it, and this is still the end result of teams knowing they can take points off us. Its as obvious a point as any that Moyes greatest results as Manchester United manager (home win vs Arsenal, home draws vs Bayern, Chelsea) were all games where teams sat off of us and gave us far too much respect.

But thats the past, what we saw yesterday was actually a huge improvement. The defensive organisation was a lot better, we created a few problems for ourselves at the back (for the exact reasons mentioned in that article) but generally were not troubled by the opposition, and we created chances. At some point or other someone had to come in and modernise this club, no one could come in and manage it as Fegie had done for a quarter of a century, Van Gaal has a proven track record of doing just that and all signs are pointing to him understanding what he's doing.

We also have 11 unavailable players at the minute and actually don't have any decent full backs fit, playing a 4-4-2 with Young and Valencia there is asking for even more trouble.

Well, not quite. Mourinho carried on with the system we had been using prior to him joining. We've always been a side that has played either the 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1, or variations of either. All the players that were sold were ones who worked in that system, however we got ridiculous offers for these players which allowed us to sell them and invest in similar players but with more qualities that Mourinho seeked.


But on United though. LVG would have studied the squad he was taking over and should have identified these problem areas if he knew what system he was looking to play. The squad clearly isn't suited to this system to begin with. Naturally, he's signed players to combat this and aid the transition to this 3-5-2 but there are players like Mata, RVP and Rooney who are considered key players within the squad that aren't ideal for this style in the long run. In fact, it actually exposes the insufficiencies more of such players. Take Mata for example; he isn't athletic enough to play the sort of role being asked within the 3-5-2. He was signed to make a difference and change the sides fortunes, yet, now he's actually become a bit of a weak point due to the change. RVP's lack of pace is only going to continue to decline further. While he is familiar with the system, he's now surrounded by players who equally lack pace, unlike with the NT. Rooney on the other hand continues to be pulled deeper into midfield, which isn't to United's benefit at all.

Things could get grim if LVG continues to try and force this change if these are the players he'll have. If he doesn't work, he'll have no choice but to put the 3-5-2 on the back burner until next season and play someone more suitable to the squad he has. Otherwise failing to do so could mean another season out of Europe and being pulled back into the pack amongst the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton and Tottenham.

You see this is the problem, you're confusing 'system' with 'formation'.

The 3-5-2 was never the intention, Van Gaal (as I've said on here about 40,000x) is on record as saying that he prefers a 4-5-1 and will transition the team towards it.

What the 3-5-2 does mean is that you can play RVP-Rooney-Mata in one team (whether thats a good idea or not is beside the point) and also make up for the fact that Rafael, Rojo, Shaw, Smalling all players that could play at the full back positions are unavailable or injured. I don't even particularly think Mata's the problem.

Now the system, or to use the word that Van Gaal uses to avoid confusion 'philosophy', is the interesting part its that which is slowing the team down, as players second guess themselves as they get used to it. Over the course of the season I think we'll transition to a 4-5-1 with more pace, and one of RVP and Rooney.

Frankly I think there's been two mistakes so far by LVG/Moyes/Woodward. Not identifying a CB to replace Vidic when it was clear he would leave in the way we did Shaw and Hererra (or maybe we did and LVG didn't like him, who knows) and making Rooney captain. Everything else is fairly predictable teething pains.

On a coincidental note I came across this:

"The United manager at the time, David Moyes, wanted Van Persie to undergo surgery to repair the ligament damage he suffered to his left knee in the 3-0 Champions League win over Olympiakos in February.
But senior Dutch officials put pressure on the player and his club to manage the injury with rest rather than undergo surgery which would have prevented him from going to Brazil.
Van Persie still hasn’t had the operation and the belief at the Old Trafford club is that he will never be 100 per cent until he has."

Would explain a lot, and also probably help us.

Another poor result and lacklustre performance.

Any word on the injury Di Maria picked up?

I think LVG said it was just a precaution and not serious.

Thank fuck for that.

It took Di Maria awhile to settle but he did and that ball for Van Persie was sublime.

I was absolutely gobsmacked when we didn't get that penalty for the push on Young.

Jamie Jackson now thinks our signings show we have little faith in our youth policy.

He's getting worse and worse.

I can still see Wilson getting a few games, and obviously there's Januzaj. Plus with the state of our defence and the frequency with which Jones/Evans/Rafael and Smalling all seem to get injured im sure some more of the younger defenders will be getting a fair amount of game time.

It's actually crucial Jones or Smalling make it here now imo.

Not academy lads (although Evans is) but Carrick, Rooney and Shaw aside they're the only English ones who should be holding down places in the team.

Hopefully Pearson, Rothwell, and Wilson stake a claim at some point too, but its not going to be the same seeing a United side without a decent proportion of English or academy players.

And apparently Lawrence has a buy back in his contract, pleased with that.

Mike Phelan still incredibly bitter I see, things were better when he was in charge..!

Can someone explain the thoughts on Falcao at the moment?

Like everyone else I was shocked to see it happen and I just can't see where he fits in, how are United going to fit in Van Persie, Falcao and Rooney with Di Maria and Mata presumably playing quite attacking roles as well?

I guess Rooney could drop back or wide but hasn't he basically insisted that he be played upfront and kicked up a fuss when told otherwise?

I just can't see how Van Persie, Rooney, Mata and Falcao fit into a starting line up, what the general consensus among united fans at the moment?

I wouldn't mind us switching to 4-3-3. So our lineup would be:

De Gea; Shaw, Rojo, Jones, Rafael; Di Maria, Blind, Herrera; Rooney RVP Falcao.

So Rooney behind RVP/Falcao. Or you can have Mata there, or Mata in midfield instead of Di Maria. I've got a feeling LVG will stick with 3-5-2 for a while though and alternate the three strikers. So it could be like this:

De Gea; Rojo, Jones, Evans; Shaw, Di Maria, Blind/Carrick, Herrera, Rafael/Tony; RVP/Rooney, Falcao.

Someone will have to cope with being on the bench more often I imagine, and my guess is that'll be Mata and probably RVP.

It will be something like that for a bit.

Midfield of Blind/Carrick, Di Maria and Hererra/Mata. Behind 2 of 3 of RVP, Rooney, and Falcao. And 5 at the back.

Other than that, a 4-4-2 diamond with Di Maria and Rooney pulling out to give width looks the best allocation of our resources.

There simple answer is that they won't all play together. There simply isn't a system that will allow them all to feature together, while most aren't overly versatile position wise to actually play outside of their preferred positions.

Mata is probably the most in danger of losing his place because of his lack of athleticism and effectively can only play the #10 role in the 3-5-2. Rooney won't be dropped now that he is captain and engineered his hefty contact. Just as you don't spend £60m on Di Maria and play him from the bench either.

To me, this hasn't been a smart transfer window at all for Man Utd and I sense some panic with how they have operated in the window. If anything, LVG has now complicated things further by bringing in Di Maria and Falcao, when there was clear need for better defensive reinforcement. They've also now committed themselves to signing what will be a 29 year old Falcao for £51m (if reports are true), not to mention wages on top of that, for next season.

I don't subscribe to that at all. Di Maria was an excellent signing. There's no way anyone can look at how we've played and come to the conclusion that we don't need pace, creativity and quality in either the wide positions or centrally, wherever he ends up playing. Thats not even just true of this season, but for absolutely yonks. This thread on redcafe entitled: Static, slow motion zombie passing is complaining about just that going back about 3 years. The last time we actually played good football was about 4 games at the start of the season we tonked Arsenal 8-2, and before that it was probably 2008.

I'm also not sure Mata's going to be dropped for 'just being able to play the no 10 role either' I actually think that's a position that Van Gaal requires to be played well, Mata might be dropped from it for not playing it very well or to shoehorn Rooney into the side, but I suspect he'll get a lot of games there. Even if he's not first choice.

I love how you exaggerate everything to make it seem worse. I know you're talking about how old he'll be next year, but its such a pointless comment to make. He's 28. Also, everywhere is reporting its closer to £40 million. Also, I don't see how his wages are any more relevant than the wages of any other player. Torres was always branded as a £50 million signing, not a £75 million signing including wages.

And Di Maria has been a target for months. Not sure how that's panic buying.

United don't spend: End of an era; Lack of ambition; No longer a draw; Can't compete.

United spend: Panic buys; Desperate; Ruining football.

At least Di Maria probably won't be labelled a flop by the British media, unlike Ozil.

When everyone is fit, it could be a strong team. Clearly Di Maria & Herrera can't work in a 2, but with Blind added, it'd work much better.

Love how VP isn't in it, cunt can go fuck himself.

(Of course I'm still bitter.)

Play everyone and hope the other team is offside

I think you're vastly underestimating how much some in the media want everything United do to blow up in our faces. So he probably will be, at some point or another.

Thanks for the laugh

Gutted to see Welbeck go. Massive chance for him though at Arsenal and hope he does well.

Cleverley gone to Villa on loan.

Certainly not messed around in getting rid of fringe/deadwood. Only Anderson left now really to get rid of.

And Young...and probably Fellaini unless theres a marked improvement this season