This Israel-Palestine bullshit

Innocent civilians don't deserve to die based on the actions of governments and leaders. If you genuinely believe that those who suffer at the hands of terrorism do so because of 'karma' then you're even more of a sick individual than I suspected.

Comparing anything that is happening in Gaza to the holocaust just makes you look like a right up dick. It is nothing like it.

It's exactly like the Holocaust, possibly worse

Shut up KM.

How are any of you guys still responding to KM?

I think it is time I stopped. Getting ridiculous.

I won't try to beat my customary political drum too much given that this is a topic that inflates the forum and a lot of users have a direct stake in the outcome of this horrendous conflict, but I do believe this is a case of government creating a conflict without the consent of its populace. As someone who sees the future of democratic diplomacy involving some sort of recognized values of global citizenship and global human rights in order to keep international relations smooth in the long-term, I feel that clasping onto national identity and battering down the hatches of statehood has escalated the troubles here. It's all about governmental control of land at the end of the day, it's about power-seeking states and not about the people who are getting caught in the crossfire.

When politics starts becoming less about constructing a civil society and protecting citizens and becomes more about casually-based point-scoring, you know you've got a serious problem; and I am completely against American and European nations meddling around in the affairs of other nations.

I'm not a fan of nationalism, religion or governments, so I was never going to be its biggest fan.

It's both sides to blame really. But in the case of Palestine, it's not their fault, it's Hamas...the fact that chokosc refers to the Hamas really says it all. Palestinians just want to leave peacefully without the problems of war. Hamas on the other hands just wants to take back "lost lands". In reality, if Hamas would stop firing missiles into Israel, I doubt there would be any firing from Israel. If there were, then Israel is in the wrong. What most people around the world have been feed to is the pictures of thousands of Palestinians being killed or injured. The fault is then being put on Israel but never on Hamas who is the instigator. I'm not saying it's right for Israel to fire into Palestine but clearly Hamas doesn't share the dreams of the many Palestinians. I feel for the Palestinians that die and wish we would have an end to all this. If the Muslims would stop fighting among themselves, we might actually see a united front where they deal directly with Hamas and save Palestine from his acts. Again, I'm not actually taking sides here but just want to see a peaceful end to this.

It's both sides to blame really. But in the case of Palestine, it's not their fault, it's Hamas...the fact that chokosc refers to the Hamas really says it all. Palestinians just want to leave peacefully without the problems of war. Hamas on the other hands just wants to take back "lost lands". In reality, if Hamas would stop firing missiles into Israel, I doubt there would be any firing from Israel. If there were, then Israel is in the wrong. What most people around the world have been feed to is the pictures of thousands of Palestinians being killed or injured. The fault is then being put on Israel but never on Hamas who is the instigator. I'm not saying it's right for Israel to fire into Palestine but clearly Hamas doesn't share the dreams of the many Palestinians. I feel for the Palestinians that die and wish we would have an end to all this. If the Muslims would stop fighting among themselves, we might actually see a united front where they deal directly with Hamas and save Palestine from his acts. Again, I'm not actually taking sides here but just want to see a peaceful end to this.

Interesting point but what about the decades before Hamas?

Interesting point but what about the decades before Hamas?

well, that's all in the past right? I understand that the past still lingers among many Israelis and Palestinians, many of them feel affected and still relate heavily to it. Which is something Hamas is using to his benefit. Honestly however, if you ask a Palestinian if they rather a close one die just so that Palestine reclaims their lands, they would rather not have those lands back. Hamas's dream of reclaiming back those lost lands is one of the main cause of the many Palestinians death. The world blames Israel because it's their rockets which are killing the Palestinians. Hamas is still very much in power and influential because unfortunately the Muslim's in the Middle East are not united. Iran is still strongly in Hamas's side while certain countries like UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia are just to preoccupied with developing their own countries. Add that to those like Syria and Egypt who are still fighting among themselves the Arab League is very much weak and can't deal with Hamas and the Israel-Palestine conflict in a proper and effective way. A strong and united Arab League would have pressured Hamas into stepping down long ago. Iran won't be supplying Hamas with the rockets and Israel would actually think twice before firing at Palestine.

You say this but Hamas were democratically voted into power by the Palestinian people by saying they would fight back. It was in their mission statement and some Palestinians have gone on video to say they feel safer under Hamas than previous regimes. Hamas are doing what they always said they would do and the people know this as they voted for it.

So you agree that it is their fault we are hurting them. They said they will fight us to get their land back. Thinking that we won't fight back is childish.

I thought the whole reason Israel's strikes were killing more civilians was because Hamas had their HQ's and weapon stores in densely populated areas? Thus counter-acting Israel's extremely advanced targeting systems

You say this but Hamas were democratically voted into power by the Palestinian people by saying they would fight back. It was in their mission statement and some Palestinians have gone on video to say they feel safer under Hamas than previous regimes. Hamas are doing what they always said they would do and the people know this as they voted for it.

Yes they did. Whether they are starting to regret that decision or not remains to be proven but it is clear that their decision is one of the main reasons for this bloodshed. Again, I'm not saying that it's entirely Hamas's fault. Israel has to take the fair share of the blame as well. Whether its for self-defense or for whatever the reasons, the fact that Israel fired back rockets and killed many Palestinians makes them a guilty party too. Of course it would be easy to conclude that Israel are just firing back in retaliation or that Hamas fires rockets in a bid to reclaim Palestine's lost lands. It's no longer about whose right or wrong here. Both are equally guilty regardless of which side is more. What the UN and Arab League have to do is to control Iran and stop them supplying Hamas with weapons and rockets. The Arab League has to be tough with Hamas and the Obama if he really wants to show that he's a leader for all and a different US President must start distancing the US from Israel. Get tough with them . So far we've keep hearing of ceasefire talks, reconciliations talks and a two state thing. It's all bullshit as we know perfectly well that it won't work. How many ceasefires have there been? How many reconciliations talk have there been? Many and yet here we are today with the bloodshed still continuing.

Also, entitling this thread "bullshit" is pretty fucking dumb.