Poe
17 years ago
2 weeks ago
3,675
If it were up to me I would never of give a vote to the common idiots. What does Sharon from the post office or Bert the postman know about global economics? The vote should have been from economists, business leaders, politicians and those among the sciences who might actually have am understanding of how leaving might affect us in the months, years and indeed decades to come. rather than from the public who from my own interactions appear to favour leaving simply because 'there's too many Paki's ova' ere' takin my ard' earned dole money and all the jobs I never applied for'.


Leads down a very dark road that.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Leads down a very dark road that.


I think I agree with him. The UK general public is not informed enough to make a decision on the EU. We don't know enough (as strongly as I will argue for the EU) we can't make a rational decision on it with certainty and even if Remain wins it will probably be for the wrong reason.

The UK is a representative democracy, and the reason for that is because we accept that we can't be informed of enough of the decisions to make any objective judgment. If you argue that we should have a referendum on the EU, then why shouldn't we have one on the budget, why don't we have one on CTC cuts etc...?

As much as we all, rightly, dislike politicians. The principe of our democratic system is you vote for someone to represent you and to make decisions on your behalf. It's their job to be informed of the facts and to make decisions.

The problem with this referendum is the basic principle of a representative democracy has been thrown under the bus. Effectively the politicians have turned around and said 'we don't know, work it out for yourselves'. It's a shirking of responsibility that shouldn't happen. YouGov polling has shown that people inclined to Brexit don't believe what experts tell them, they don't believe what academics tell them, business leaders, politicians, anyone. It's hardly the best environment in which the country can make the best decision.

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/x4iynd1mn7/TodayResults_160614_EUReferendum_W.pdf (Raw data for that claim about trust, there was a better graphic elsewhere but I can't find it)
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
Yes.

I'm under the assumption that Shola knows that and is trolling though.

Not only is the £350m a complete nonsense (its the gross figure not including our rebate which brings the figure down to ~£190m ish) but theres also a variety of other reasons why its utter bullshit in order:

1. The value of the EU to our economy vastly outweighs the cost. Even ignoring most sensible economic arguments the value of inward investment from EU countries to the UK is about £50bn a year. That utterly dwarfs the cost of membership (and theres good reason to believe that £50bn vastly underestimates the influence the EU has).
2. If we vote to Leave the pound will take an utter battering, institutions that use London as a anglophone point of entry into the EU will leave (why would they stay?) and people will lose their jobs. Perhaps we could ride it out and come out the other side, but when Leave have offered literally no argument whatsoever for why on earth we would want to do that then, well, why on earth would we want to do that?
3. Leave's argument has been that we'd sign a trade deal with the EU to access the single market. To do that we'd have to pay a fee (Norway pays £245m a year gross although I'm not sure if the receive a rebate) so to do that we'd end up paying more, or at the very least not saving much, for less. We'd be beholden to the EU's rules (especially the 'nonsense' ones like bendy bananas that literally don't exist), and more than likely have to except freedom of movement as a condition - at the very least, both Switzerland and Norway were forced to accept that.

I know Remain gets branded as 'scaremongers' because Leave can't engage with their concerns, but they're right. The prospect of waking up tomorrow out of the EU is fucking terrifying.


In fairness I don't think I've heard Remain communicate this point at all. Like apparently the EU rebuilt Manchester after it was bombed and I haven't heard that at all. They seem to have made an error of allowing immigration to dictate the discussion.

My main concern isn't the economy it's reconsruction - if we pull away all the EU laws and allow the most right wing Government dictate new laws. I'm genuinely scared to think of what employment rights I may have in two years time. Imagine Michael Gove or Iain Duncan Smith being in complete charge of employment rights or welfare.
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
Amazing how many people genuinely seem to think that they're honouring Britain's Heroes of yesterday who died at the Somme etc.

My hot take from WW1 was poorer economic conditions + Nationalism + smaller, weaker and more isolated states = Jelly and ice cream for all.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111

Amazing how many people genuinely seem to think that they're honouring Britain's Heroes of yesterday who died at the Somme etc.


My hot take from WW1 was poorer economic conditions + Nationalism + smaller, weaker and more isolated states = Jelly and ice cream for all.


Had a look at the IVotedLeave hashtag on Twitter and so many bloody idiots were saying that shit.
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
Yeah that's what I was looking at.

The official reason for entering the wars were because Germany invaded Belgium and Poland. It's absolutely staggering that people seem to think otherwise. We fought alongside Stalin ffs not exactly a great friend to freedom or democracy.

I think it's because Americans say it. And at least it is half true when they say it. They fought a war which gave them more freedom, democracy and suffrage, ours was handed down over a period of around a hundred years for varying reasons. Thank Bobby Peel, Gladstone and the Marquess of Salisbury for the vote ffs.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Yeah that's what I was looking at.

The official reason for entering the wars were because Germany invaded Belgium and Poland. It's absolutely staggering that people seem to think otherwise. We fought alongside Stalin ffs not exactly a great friend to freedom or democracy.

I think it's because Americans say it. And at least it is half true when they say it. They fought a war which gave them more freedom, democracy and suffrage, ours was handed down over a period of around a hundred years for varying reasons. Thank Bobby Peel, Gladstone and the Marquess of Salisbury for the vote ffs.


The thing that really confuses those people is when you tell them the European Union was set up because we had 2 World Wars and was an attempt (and success) at stopping it happening again.
Poe
17 years ago
2 weeks ago
3,675
I think I agree with him. The UK general public is not informed enough to make a decision on the EU. We don't know enough (as strongly as I will argue for the EU) we can't make a rational decision on it with certainty and even if Remain wins it will probably be for the wrong reason.

The UK is a representative democracy, and the reason for that is because we accept that we can't be informed of enough of the decisions to make any objective judgment. If you argue that we should have a referendum on the EU, then why shouldn't we have one on the budget, why don't we have one on CTC cuts etc...?

As much as we all, rightly, dislike politicians. The principe of our democratic system is you vote for someone to represent you and to make decisions on your behalf. It's their job to be informed of the facts and to make decisions.

The problem with this referendum is the basic principle of a representative democracy has been thrown under the bus. Effectively the politicians have turned around and said 'we don't know, work it out for yourselves'. It's a shirking of responsibility that shouldn't happen. YouGov polling has shown that people inclined to Brexit don't believe what experts tell them, they don't believe what academics tell them, business leaders, politicians, anyone. It's hardly the best environment in which the country can make the best decision.

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/x4iynd1mn7/TodayResults_160614_EUReferendum_W.pdf (Raw data for that claim about trust, there was a better graphic elsewhere but I can't find it)


Then surely leave it to just politicians to vote then?

Getting a small group of like minded folk together and allowing them to vote on things that affect people that have nothing to do with them is silly, surely?
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Its going to be a long, long night. Actually weird being this nervous about politics ha, the pound took a massive hammering as soon as the Sunderland result was announced.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Its going to be a long, long night. Actually weird being this nervous about politics ha, the pound took a massive hammering as soon as the Sunderland result was announced.


Down 7 cent against the dollar in 5 minutes.

Yet people think we'll have more money to spend when we Leave. Laughable.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111







Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClrBhqxWIAAwew8.jpg

Pound since the Sunderland result.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Down 7 cent against the dollar in 5 minutes.

Yet people think we'll have more money to spend when we Leave. Laughable.


Girl i work with who is voting leave because her parents are is going on a family holiday to New York in October, fucking good luck with spending money darling
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClrBhqxWIAAwew8.jpg

Pound since the Sunderland result.


Fantastic result that. Not like 90% of the town work in the public sector. I'm sure sd the pound drops there will be more exports of the Council and NHS....especially when Nissan fuck off back to France. Incredible Stupidity.


At least Fat Sam will be happy. The big racist.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Well, the UK was fun while it lasted wasn't it?

Scotland to back Remain by 20 points, England to drag it out of the EU.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
So much talk of people voting against the establishment, they have completely missed the point of this referendum. The irony is in voting against the status quo they'll end up giving Cameron and the Tory government more power than they've ever had, and not necessarily for the better.

I wouldn't mind the vote against the establishment if we hadn't only had a general election a bloody year ago.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Well this has been a pretty horrible night...

Rick87
14 years ago
5 days ago
3,084
Time to begin battening down the hatches for the oncoming Tory shitstorm.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Ive been up all night and it was like watching the worst car crash ever in super slow motion, and now i cant bloody sleep :/
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Right. Where we moving to?
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
I hope Nissan closes overnight.
Franck
17 years ago
2 days ago
4,255
The English people just sat fire to their own house and dragged the Scots and the Northern Irish down with them.
Rick87
14 years ago
5 days ago
3,084
Farage already backtracking on the £350m a week he promised we would save and give to the NHS.

Lie #1 unravels just hours after the vote.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
The English people just sat fire to their own house and dragged the Scots and the Northern Irish down with them.


Oi at least blame the Welsh too.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Farage already backtracking on the £350m a week he promised we would save and give to the NHS.

Lie #1 unravels just hours after the vote.


Dan Hannan has also come out and said leaving wont change immigration, only taken a few hours and the two major campaign points have gone up in smoke.
Rick87
14 years ago
5 days ago
3,084
Dan Hannan has also come out and said leaving wont change immigration, only taken a few hours and the two major campaign points have gone up in smoke.

Which anybody with half a brain knew anyway.
Never thought I would say it but I hope dodgy Dave doesn't resign, the thought of that sack of shit Johnson leading this country makes my skin crawl.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
As if today couldn't get any worse it seems Cameron is about to announce his resignation.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Cameron's gone.

Fucking Brexit can't even let me enjoy a moment I've been waiting for for 6 years.
Carroll.
15 years ago
3 years ago
3,361
Well weve fucked up.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
FTSE 250 has had 11% wiped off it and FTSE 100 has lost £120bn in the 48 minutes its been open.

Good job we're getting that £350m back hey.

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