FM.Challenge

The credits are not the first time I have written them. I have been writing them since the first day I uploaded housing to the page. I believe that housing exists to any extent, and anyone can modify it, remove it, or modify it. I am sorry because I did not know that I had to ask for permission, and I think that the page is a page in which I have changed a lot. Maybe the club page has this club information, which I did not change anything about, but the player presentation page in which I changed things. However, I apologize to you or anyone I used who has anything, but I edit anything I take, not everything is a copy and paste. I did not receive any money for this work. It is volunteer work in the first place and in the end, and we help each other with it. If modification is a crime, then I think whoever modifies cars deserves to be prosecuted

Copying is not the same as stealing. YOU didn't lose anything here, except from your respect as a creator. But what is the point here?

Is this about making better skins for the player base, or your honour? So here is the fact, his Frankenstein, is FAR better than your skin at the moment imo (overall), so for me as the user, him copying other's work, taking what he considers to be the best parts, is directly making the game better for me.

If I knew anything about skinning, I could likely do it myself, but that is my point. I do not, and nor do most who download skins. So I guess the question is, do you want me, or anyone else playing with this Frankenstein version, to stop playing with it, and play on what we consider a less suited option for us, to please you, as the original creator of a part of it? Since, that is what this is all about.

I understand where you are coming from, but as far I can tell, there is no money, power, or any meaningful metric involved in creating these skins, outside just recognition. Which 100% should be done. But after that … should modding not Just be about creating as many good options to play the game, for as many players possible?

The point is being respectful to other creators alot of panels made are custom made by the creator it is stealing work if you copy and paste. It's respectful to ask the creators to use their work .

If you can't see why this is wrong you're part of the problem and one of the reasons skin makers are less and less by the day. 

You're trying to justify yourself but how would you feel if I just copied your skin linked my YouTube said subscribe to me and change just the main menu screen. 

I sent you your permission regarding the credits and you did not respond to me

probably most started their acquaintance with skinning by modifying other people's skins. but it's really very funny when the "author" runs to another forum to ask for basic advice on changing his "own" skin.
I think he should continue to study without publishing the results of his work. and in 2-3 years he might be able to publish his own skin.

The most valuable advice is not considered a defect. But the advice you are talking about caused a problem with my skin, so I solved it myself after some many attempts.

the problem with "your" skin was caused by the fact that you just like a monkey glued together different files from different skins and did not understand well, or did not understand at all, how they work and where to look in case of problems.
it's normal when you're doing it for yourself, but it's questionable when you're putting it out there for the public and calling yourself an author 😀

And again, stealing is stealing, copying is copying. Pretty different definitions. 

About being respectful, I agree. Though, I do not necessarily think permission is always needed in the modding community (kind of grey area), but credit should. Now Salah, did copy the credit, along with likely 10 different panels with slight changes, to create this Frankenstein. So the argument is, should he go around to each of these individuals, asking for permission, to copy it? Oh, and what about if some of those creators, had used something from someone else, maybe a code from 10 years ago, from a modder no longer active, should he still need permission from all those original creators? NO! 

Might be wrong, but there seem to be more skinners now then 5 or 10 years ago. There also seem to be more modders in general.

I'm making mods in other games, and encourage copying to make more and different content for everyone. This behaviour from modders, getting their feelings hurt be course someone is copying what they put out there to get downloaded for free to begin with, is silly, stupid, and straight up ridicules unless there were money involved (Which there never should be anyhow)

Sure, I'm maybe part of the problem, how you see it. But we likely want the same thing.

I would rather play with it now. I do not care about his skills 2–3 years into the future, or him creating something unique. There are already so many good panels, and skins out there with unique stuff in them, but none of them combined in a way I wanted. This one does, and that is really all that matter to me.

Exactly-well said mate

you are very good at helping the author of this skin get along with the real authors of the panels. 😀

Alright

Then please tell me what you added from IronOwl and from where you got the idea for it as you have his name in the credits

also, what have you added from Cat skin ?

just to ask a few questions.. about your own credit line

i've seen that you now added Just skin to the bottom and me to the top.. but lets have a look at mine vs yours

attached credits from both.

and club info and player profil is all from my skin

But maybe you can explain to me how you've added the FM Stag stats to the default top menu if you still claim that it's your design

i've asked a admin to remove your skin from the site as you didnt remove it yourself as you said to me you would in the PM to me

43MB file compares to Flutskin 542MB

Says it all really

I'll add my two cents.  Not that anyone asked.  If you respect the people you are taking from, then the absolute minimum should be that you ask them first.  It's not hard.  Most of them have profiles on whichever site they downloaded the skin from.  You might even find that they are quite helpful with other queries.  Whether that is bits of code you don't understand how to modify, or identifying the source of something else.

The community is better when they are lifting each other up.  Skinning is not a competition.  You provide something, and hopefully someone else likes it.  If they don't like it, you hope that the end user finds something more akin to what they wanted.  That's why I personally don't just credit.  I explicitly explain why people are credited, and then within the skin itself, each thing that has been inspired by someone else is really clearly marked.  Now, I don't get to dictate what other people think is reasonable in this regard.  My standards are my standards alone.  But, showing others in the community respect is always a good starting point.

Without it, I wouldn't have had conversations with others that have helped to develop my own ideas.  Without it, I wouldn't have been able to find solutions to problems along the way.  Without it, I would've made fewer friends.  First impressions matter.

let's not jerk off on the Flutskin. 
there are 500+MB of graphics files, of which 3/4 are alternative addons, not the main skin. and let's be honest, the Flutskin has degraded a lot in the last 3-4, maybe 5 years.
it feels like he has run out of ideas and is afraid to take on new panels. simply shuffles pre-existing widgets in pre-existing panels in a circle.

still the best in mine and many many others opinion and created with ethics, unlike the owner of this small skin, he probably thinks Ethics is near Sussex

Just to add here.  Sure, A.Salah91 has made an error of judgement, but it's not beyond salvation.  He has a chance to reach out and learn from his mistakes, and hopefully continue to refine his skills.  Insulting other skins just because they aren't to your taste, is just as ridiculous as claiming something is the “best ever” because it is to your taste.

I know I'm just repeating myself here, but the community is better when it lifts each other up, and encouraging variety is a huge part of this.  Just because something isn't what you wanted, don't start discouraging people, because it may be what someone else wants.  Regardless of various missteps, people put in their free time to do this, and the more people who are willing to contribute constructively, the better we all are for it.

After this work, will you call me a thief?

do you see that your tab switch has a bug?  a cloudy plume stretches from the green circle.  this is a good reason to make your own graphics instead of the old one copied from the TCS 😀

Yes i do! - The panels are still from my skin that you just rearranged and changed the graphics for the outline of the headline instead of my outlines

i'll just mention a few things that

age in green - i'm the only one that has that

HG-date = homegrown-date = i'm also the only one that has that

player IQ dots - all mine (original made by Ben changed to match attribute colours by me)

The green Triangle next to the name, is from my skin to hide and show hidden attributes

so the middle 3 boxes are completely mine just rearrenged and placed in the middle

all the panels are from my skin, the lower right box is MY making, i've combined them instead of having them seperately as i liked it that way

the middle attribute panel and the tabs are all from my skin - just moved into the middle

the FM STAG stats that I ASKED for permission to add to my skin, I'VE placed it there and you didnt return with a answer to how YOU placed it there if it was yours

same goes for my question on IronOwl - what did you add that i got permission to add ?

and i could go on, - you never asked for any permission to use or take anything, 

and your word means nothing as the PM you sent me saying that you would remove the skin.. pft.

and seeing that i'm not the only Skin maker that you taken stuff from without asking just proves my point..

This debate has raged for years it's a really shitty situation that SI have never written any documentation and skin makers don't seem particularly interested in coming together to document what they do and create some sort of wiki (i've tried multiple times!) so the only way for anyone to learn is to edit other people's which constantly leads to these arguments.

And while there have been a number of assholes over the years I try to remember hanlon's razor in these instances, i'd rather assume that instances like these stem from naive enthusiasm rather than malice and I reckon everyone and the community as a whole would be healthier for it if we all took that approach.

What happens more often than not someone will edit someone else's work to learn, they had no idea what they were doing so it took 80+ hours, they get excited about what they've achieved so they release it super proud of what they've done and they get shouted at because to someone more experienced it looks like they only took 30 minutes to make a few edits. The copier then gets defensive because they genuinely did put alot of sweat into it and didn't have shitty intentions, they did try and credit but they fucked up copying the credits off the skin they were using as a template and forgot to add the author of that template itself (an easy mistake to make). The person who's work they've used gets annoyed because they're not hearing an apology only what they see as doubling down and lies. In the end both the skin maker and the copier get pissed off and both decide not to make skins anymore and everyone loses.

The above may not be exactly whats happened here but is a composite depiction of whats been happening in one way or another for 20 odd years. Someone said above this is why we don't have any new skin makers, the fact that new skin makers have to walk in egg shells is also a reason we don't have any skin makers. And what's worse is the more enthusiastic they are and the earlier they post the more likely they are to make mistakes and get shouted at. That sucks because we could really do with more people who are fresh faced and enthusiastic.

@Nicolas Yurchuk said he should not post and do it all offline and only post after 2-3 years. This is insane and I hope nobody else feels that way. People should be encouraged to post more frequently and share what they're doing more imo.

And when new people make mistakes we would all be better off if everyone assumed they were naive and overly enthusiastic and pointed out to them how to do things and why, rather than assuming they're assholes trying to steal and profit and need to be brought down.

To be clear I haven't checked the files or the credits in this case but I wanted to say the above as a more general point while it was on my mind.

@Footygamer 

the fact is that he did nothing.  just mixed up other people's works.  no new ideas, banal color scheme, obvious bugs... this can be seen as a beginner's attempt to understand the functioning of the skin, but there is no point in spreading it.

@Footygamer 

ummm... and I understand that my description is valid for 2/3 of the existing skins.  but their authors at least do not promote their channel and do not run to other forums for help in case someone points out an error in their work)

@Footygamer 

as it seems that you're the only one that can make the decision on whether a item should stay or go on this site.

all i can say is that even tho it's clear that this user has "taken/stolen/borrowed" 99% of his skin from various skins, and i'm not only talking about a few panels here and there.. But whole pages with everything inside it and just mixed it all together to this… without giving credit unless told to, without asking anyone for permission

i'm speachless as it seems that nothing is being done on your partto help prevent this from happening, i hope you've enjoyed having my skin here for the 1st time and last time.

i agree, this is totally against the spirit of the site (and community) the skin is poorly constructed and motivated sadly by you tube subscribers / like (sad)

if the skin is made better and recieves the permission / acknowledgement from others, then it could come back

sadly the advent of FM25 will reduce the creativity of good modders-this is not needed and as i say, very poor form

You only criticize, how about saying something constructive? or you must be a frustrated child in your room who couldn't even copy someone else's skin

I think you can't ride your own skin and need someone to help
What do you think of this change?

I think you are accusing me of stealing the computer too

I was hoping my post might encourage some sort of resolution and that people can be taught how to be better rather than simply punished, deleting the post would be a last resort in my eyes.

If @A.Salah91 was thinking clearly he would take the time to be less defensive and a bit more humble, apologise and make considerable changes to his description to include clearer credit to @sasmaz as well as share information on the changes he's made and how he's made them, thereby reassuring people of the effort he has put in and attaining some goodwill by contributing back to the community and helping others who will find themselves in a similar situation.

Unfortunately he hasn't and is just responding in quite a combative tone. While I understand people's instinct to be defensive when criticised it's not coming across very well.

So @A.Salah91 could you please show some indication that you understand and acknowledge what's gone on here and correct it in such a way that convinces people it won't happen again. Then you'll be able to continue learning how to make skins and contributing to the community.

The download link is disable?

your other big problem is that you don't make a skin for yourself, but to please other people and promote your YouTube channel.  subjectively, it looks terrible, there are many inconsistencies, there is no single template, in some places there are not enough indents, etc.  the fact that you start shuffling the order of the panels on the page does not change anything.