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Flash.
Slashman X
I think the FA showed here that rather than Terry being treated lightly, Suarez was punished heavily. So Terry's 4-game ban would be the 'norm' and Suarez's 8-games would be a 'worst-case' for constant abuse
Carroll.
jumberto
There's plenty of other things it's about before we get to Hillsborough to be fair.
jumberto
They have made a very public attack on the performance of the referee and on the integrity of Fergie and Valencia, with little basis on facts. Whether it was done in such a cynical way as a club-run cover-up or unintentionally, the fact is they have came out and made these comments.
Carroll.
tmatthew
Carroll comes up with United's songs, so he obviously knows the meaning behind them.
jumberto
What the fuck are you on about with that first bit???
It's about Heysel, how the club blamed everyone else but themselves, it's about Suarez, how the club blamed everyone else but themselves from start to finish, about Michael Shields (absolutely disgusting case), the CL final a few years ago with ticketless fans (UEFA's fault), every defeat against United is the referee's fault (2008, Fa Cup 2010, last weekend to give 3 examples) etc etc etc.
If it's so offensive why were Everton fans not taken to task for singing the same song at the FA Cup Semi last season? Why has nothing been mentioned about United fans singing it until last weekend when a couple of journalists started stirring tensions a week before the big match by suggesting that now suddenly it's all about Hillsborough. I agree it could be interpreted as referring to Hillsborough, and therefore it shouldn't have been sung this weekend. In saying that it wasn't until after the match when the Liverpool fans did what they did but that's a petty and childish reaction really.
jumberto
What the fuck are you on about with that first bit???
It's about Heysel, how the club blamed everyone else but themselves, it's about Suarez, how the club blamed everyone else but themselves from start to finish, about Michael Shields (absolutely disgusting case), the CL final a few years ago with ticketless fans (UEFA's fault), every defeat against United is the referee's fault (2008, Fa Cup 2010 and last weekend, to give 3 examples) etc etc etc.
If it's so offensive why were Everton fans not taken to task for singing the same song at the FA Cup Semi last season? Why has nothing been mentioned about United fans singing it until last weekend when a couple of journalists started stirring tensions a week before the big match by suggesting that now suddenly it's all about Hillsborough. I agree it could be interpreted as referring to Hillsborough, and therefore it shouldn't have been sung this weekend. In saying that it wasn't until after the match when the Liverpool fans did what they did but that's a petty and childish reaction really.
King Luis
You just answered your own bloody question
Carroll.
Well it's not fucking hard to see there's some meaning behind them.
The conspiracy theories bit? Ninja claimed your chants are because of that etc.
How did the club blame everyone but themselves from Heysel? Might want to read up a bit on that. And not some of the bollocks that gets written. Plus if it's to do with Heysel then that's pretty disrespectful too.
Oh yeah the Suarez case. Everyone else but themselves again? No, we supported Suarez against Evra's claims, we didn't go and put the blame on anyone else. Well may come across it, seeing supporting Suarez means we discredited Evra but fuck this shifting blame bit.
What's the Michael Shields case got to do with anything in this? The fans thought he was innocent and found it unfair for him to be convicted without a fair trial, okay he was found guilty in the end, but at the time he was unfairly treated and if he was innocent, would have been fucked to get convicted without a trial.
I remember the CL ticket affair (2007 we're on about here right), and although I don't think the ticket forging etc was right, both clubs were a bit fucked over by UEFA? Both got like 17,000 tickets each, with only 11,000 going to the Liverpool fans. UEFA got like over a half. I'd be pretty pissed off if I didn't get a ticket because some rich UEFA gets one. But in the end the ones who forged ended up fucking over their own compatriots, since it meant that fans with real tickets couldn't get in. Very cuntish thing to do.
I've got a terrible knack of remembering games, especially from few years back but I'll try my best. Plus I'm not sure what the chant has got to do with these games. 2008 was Mascherano sending off right? That was the right decision if I remember right, he was running his mouth all game. Don't see where we blamed the ref for that one, but very possible, can't remember. The FA Cup was Gerrard red? Was a pretty harsh decision, but I'm not going to go into that, since it's been talked on here so many times. But it definitely changed the complexity of the game. Plus last weekend you can't say the referee was consistent and his decisions didn't favour you. But games are games, like I see don't see how it's in the argument, since it's nothing to do with playing a victim?
And of course it'll get talked about more, seeing there was talk from both managers of cutting it out, and it was very bad timing too. Doesn't make it better at other times but it doesn't get as much attention.
tmatthew
I can't be arsed getting into another argument about this, but have to point out that Liverpool released a statement claiming Evra was not credible because he had made similar accusations before, which is a lie.
Abbott
Little basis on facts? We didn't get a penalty that was a foul. You didn't get a man sent off for a reckless challenge. We gave away a very soft penalty and had a man sent off for a similar challenge to the aforementioned. I think that's plenty of reason to complain about decisions.
And boo fucking hoo, Fergie is the absolute master of talking about referees and shifting attention to others whilst his own methods are questionable.
Phoenix Arrow
Sometimes referees make wrong decisions. Sometimes they make multiple wrong decisions in big games. If they're genuinely shit or biased, it will show itself over a series of games and they'll get demoted. But really, I think the best way to argue the case against Liverpool fans having a victim attitude is to act like they're the victims. Although admittedly it's not as tedious as Man U fans baiting them over ever little thing.
It gets worse as you go down the league, believe me. One time I saw a player get given 3 yellow cards. The thing he got the third yellow card for happened to be a penalty which the other team scored which won them the game. Shit happens.
Abbott
jumberto
Not sure what you're getting so worked up about, I'm aware all managers do it. That's not the point I was making.
Since the weekend the staff have spoken only about not getting decisions (see Rodgers comments today re: Mike Riley etc) and the fans have followed suit. I haven't really seen any criticism of the poor finishing or the moments of madness in defence. FFS Agger and Johnson took each other out and then one ran back and gave away a penalty and all the talk is how Valencia apparently dived. This weekend wasn't the first time you've been the better team and lost this season, and it was for the same reasons as before.
The reason I said 'little basis on fact' was because Gerrard came out and said Shelvey's foul was definitely not a red, which is complete rubbish even if you think it was debatable you can never say it was definitely not a red, Shelvey said Fergie grassed on him (is that an admission of guilt?) and Johnson said he made no contact with Valencia and he just went down, which is rubbish as there's video evidence showing he did.
Anyway lets just be friends and leave it at that. Can't even be bothered replying to Carroll as he doesn't know what he's talking about bless him.
Phoenix Arrow
But the Mirror is a newspaper for people who have difficulty doing up their own shoes.
Carroll.
Well funny thing I went back and explained each of your point yet you claim I don't know what I'm talking about? Stop throwing random shit together then it won't get disproved.
jumberto
Well done for proving the point. I said you didn't know what you were talking about, not tmatthew.
You didnt explain each of my points at all, you offered a line about each when you've clearly got no real idea of what happened and then told me to go read up on it!
Go and do some light reading on Heysel and the Michael Shields case, even a bit of wiki would throw up far more than you just offered as you must have forgotten the denial, blame, witness intimidation, political blackmail and so on attributed to those two cases.
.verse
Apparently it's based on wage income or something.
Ninja
I think the distinction he's making is that it's only being interpreted as a Hillsborough song now because the media want a story that United fans are singing about it.
The fact it's been sung for nearly a year, by Everton fans as well, and until this week no one has been offended by it should tell you where this story ends.
I mean take a comment from BBC's Sportsday: Danny Harper on Twitter: "Four-match ban for Terry & eight-match ban for Suarez. Is the FA going to explain why? Ah yes Evra is a Utd player! I get it now!"
It's hardly an atypical example of the sort of nonsense some Liverpool fans believe, and that your club is fairly willing to intimate, and thats why the song was made in the wake of the Suarez affair.
I just think it's a stretch to intimate it's a Hillsborough song, and think people are only looking for that interpretation now because they want to be offended.
Abbott
Its also incredibly boring hearing 'look at these stupid comments by Liverpool fans! your club is forcing your fans to be stupid by feeding you conspiracy theories and false assumptions!!'. No, its just that as a big club there's going to a fair share of idiot fans who like to think everybody hates them. They are also the select few fans that go on the internet to tell everybody this.
Ninja
Yes, but you're pretty conveniently ignoring the fact that any offence is coming form a deliberate misinterpretation.
The link to Hillsborough is tenuous, but you're making it sound like we were signing about pissing on the graves of the 96.
tmatthew
Was wondering what the fuck I'd done.
Abbott
The fact that's its not DIRECTLY referring to Hillsborough is irrelevant. Can you not see how the average person who heard that United fans had sung 'always the victim, its never your fault' followed by 'murderers!' on the day that the Hillsborough victims were being remembered would think that was a bad thing to do? Its not bloody difficult to understand.
*smacks head on desk*
Ninja
So why aren't you complaining about the chant of 'murderers' as opposed to 'Always the Victim'?
Surely that would be the story here rather than stretching it's always the victim to fit?
King Luis
Ninja
Well it's always going to be a circular argument when neither side is going to budge from their position, I don't see how inanely posting gifs is going to help that.
Abbott
I'M COMPLAINING ABOUT BOTH.
BOTH FIT. BOTH SOUND LIKE THEY'RE ABOUT HILLSBOROUGH. BOTH COULD BE OFFENSIVE TO PEOPLE. WHY ARE YOU BEING SO AWKWARD?!
ARRGGGHH.
Ninja
Except that we established at the start of this argument that Always the Victims doesn't fit.
I can't see how you can't understand why we would want to point out that a song very commonly heard at Old Trafford is not about Hillsborough. no ones said that it's not badly timed, no ones said that it's ridiculous to interpret it that way all that's being said is that the offense that Liverpool fans are taking from the song is misplaced.
IF I'M BEING AWKWARD THEN SO ARE YOU FOR CONSISTENTLY IGNORING THIS POINT.