Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Mata on the wing in a 4-4-2 is just inexcusable, it's a waste of his talent. If Moyes doesn't change formation/tactic soon I think that'll prove to be his downfall. I'd be more understanding of our bad performances if he was trying things/tinkering to get us going and playing the way he wants, but he's just stuck with 4-4-2 and hoping it gets better. It's not going to work, he hasn't figured that out yet, It's pathetic.

For some reason he won't play Adnan and Mata in the same lineup. RVP upfront, Wayne behind him with Adnan and Mata either side all roaming in a 4-2-3-1 formation, sorted. Or if Rooney goes, Mata behind RVP, Adnan/Zaha/Kagawa or whoever alongside.

The persistence in Young and Valencia is just mind boggling, I'd rather we play Lingard than them both, or Zaha. Obviously he's allowed his adjustment period, Moyes, but we're not seeing any development. Mata was a development, but he's just stuck him out on the wing, seemingly just to give Adnan some rest, rotating them both.

RVP has had injuries, wherever this is linked to the training methods we don't know for sure, but knowing RVP's history with injuries/fitness then it makes sense him having a bad season. Then again when he has played he has scored often, except Wednesday of course. I really hope that Moyes knows that our bad performances aren't to do with luck, that he's just defending his team in the media.

I'll be very worried if Moyes doesn't start changing formation/tactic soon. I'm actually worried for the Olympiakos match.


But you've just done the exact same thing as the guy that wrote that article.

I mean, actually watch closely where he goes and what he does with the ball, the Fulham game is a great example because we had so much of the ball that the 'average posistions' are a reflection of what players look to do when we attack.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgECuETCIAEiEZF.jpg:large

This team is nominally a 4-4-2, if you want to call it that, but it's just as easily a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-1-1 or whatever you want to do to write it down. I mean, effectively these discussions are just pointless, and driven from Football Manager tactics, our formation is IDENTICAL to what you're saying it should be, but your missing the point that its not the formation thats the problem.
Sam
17 years ago
1 year ago
5,092
The whole setup is a huge problem, the way we're playing is wrong.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/001/364/725/9ea4fa8f8bfcb19c37c12d5e1d0dac3d_original.png?1391998465

Playing Mata out on the right in a 4-4-2, just inexcusable. Sure he drifted inside, but if you're going wing attack then why not just play with the wingers we have, why buy Mata? At Fulham, and most games, it's clearly been Rooney/RVP up front, two wingers and two MCs. 4-4-2. Switching to 4-2-3-1 would be simple enough, RVP up front with Rooney/Adnan/Mata behind, logical. We played 4-4-2 against Stoke, lost, and then did it again against Fulham, stupid. We nearly lost to the worst team in the league, at home.

If it stays like this, Moyes will be out quicker. I want him to do well, and I've been patient, but he's not changing anything. He has no plan b.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
The whole setup is a huge problem, the way we're playing is wrong.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/001/364/725/9ea4fa8f8bfcb19c37c12d5e1d0dac3d_original.png?1391998465

Playing Mata out on the right in a 4-4-2, just inexcusable. Sure he drifted inside, but if you're going wing attack then why not just play with the wingers we have, why buy Mata? At Fulham, and most games, it's clearly been Rooney/RVP up front, two wingers and two MCs. 4-4-2. Switching to 4-2-3-1 would be simple enough, RVP up front with Rooney/Adnan/Mata behind, logical. We played 4-4-2 against Stoke, lost, and then did it again against Fulham, stupid. We nearly lost to the worst team in the league, at home.

If it stays like this, Moyes will be out quicker. I want him to do well, and I've been patient, but he's not changing anything. He has no plan b.


I had this exact same argument on redcafe so I'm just going to copy it across. He's clearly not playing on the right in a 4-4-2.

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/juan-mata-everything-that-matas.383131/page-60#post-15079538

(The tone is a little aggressive because I was getting fed up with the guy I was responding to, so don't read anything in to that! )
Sam
17 years ago
1 year ago
5,092
I had this exact same argument on redcafe so I'm just going to copy it across. He's clearly not playing on the right in a 4-4-2.

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/juan-mata-everything-that-matas.383131/page-60#post-15079538


These two articles are my arguments back, I'll place them here too.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1944781-moyes-tactics-to-blame-for-manchester-united-defeat-to-stoke

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1954224-david-moyes-will-be-sacked-if-he-continues-using-his-current-tactics

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/001/347/705/e15b950df123dadf9b47ef686305f6b5_original.?1391279557

EDIT: Your points are good points though, I'm not being aggressive either incase you think I am. I think we can both agree things need to improve and we're both trying to not sink into depression!
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
These two articles are my arguments back, I'll place them here too.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1944781-moyes-tactics-to-blame-for-manchester-united-defeat-to-stoke

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1954224-david-moyes-will-be-sacked-if-he-continues-using-his-current-tactics

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/001/347/705/e15b950df123dadf9b47ef686305f6b5_original.?1391279557

EDIT: Your points are good points though, I'm not being aggressive either incase you think I am. I think we can both agree things need to improve and we're both trying to not sink into depression!


No I know you're not, hence why I wanted to make it clear that the tone I wrote that in was aimed at him and not applicable to this discussion.

That Stoke map is interesting in his argument, I don't think you could present one that shows a player with more freedom to roam around the pitch than that! I mean apart from the blobs on the right (which is obviously where he is lining up, I'm not trying to argue he's playing behind the striker), and I suspect those are mostly because of where he was being asked to move defensively, they're literally all over the pitch.

Compare it to Ashley Young's from the same game, theres subtle but noticeable differences, he played wider and did not roam as much.

Frankly, its a problem of tactics only in one sense, the way we're playing, in terms of formation I can't see anything to be criticised.

It's a somewhat pointless argument, Mata is not the solution to the problem individually, unless there's a team commitment to playing decent football he's always going to be wasted, but just watch him closely against Palace and I think you'll see there's very little 'wide' about where he is playing.
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.


In fairness, I think it's Sam just trying to rationalise why we've signed Mata and are still playing badly, and also I think a lot of United fans are scarred by what has happened with Kagawa.

@Sam, this post is also more than decent on Mata. http://www.redcafe.net/threads/juan-mata-everything-that-matas.383131/page-60#post-15080255
Sam
17 years ago
1 year ago
5,092
Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.


We spent £37M on him, we have: Young, Valencia, Adnan, Lingard, Zaha, Nani, Kagawa who can all play on the wing. In any case us relying on our wingers/full backs to cross every five seconds is not working, and we've bought Mata and shoved him out on the wing. What was the point of buying one of the best players in the league when all we're doing is playing him when our wonderkid winger is in need of rest?

Our whole system is very rigid. I'm not saying Mata will change everything, but you surely would have expected some improvement when we signed him? His signing has mainly just highlighted Moyes' poor tactics, and his inability to change things round. We're doing shit anyway, so tinkering is not going to harm anyone.


No I know you're not, hence why I wanted to make it clear that the tone I wrote that in was aimed at him and not applicable to this discussion.

That Stoke map is interesting in his argument, I don't think you could present one that shows a player with more freedom to roam around the pitch than that! I mean apart from the blobs on the right (which is obviously where he is lining up, I'm not trying to argue he's playing behind the striker), and I suspect those are mostly because of where he was being asked to move defensively, they're literally all over the pitch.

Compare it to Ashley Young's from the same game, theres subtle but noticeable differences, he played wider and did not roam as much.

Frankly, its a problem of tactics only in one sense, the way we're playing, in terms of formation I can't see anything to be criticised.

It's a somewhat pointless argument, Mata is not the solution to the problem individually, unless there's a team commitment to playing decent football he's always going to be wasted, but just watch him closely against Palace and I think you'll see there's very little 'wide' about where he is playing.


The Young heat map is definitely a good point, Mata is drifting inside more, but 81 crosses, you know, it speaks for itself. The formation isn't the main problem I see that, but it's not helping. It's rigid. When watching the matches I see a basic 4-4-2 being played, along with pre-historic football. The way we're playing I see now is more the problem, rather than the formation, but we need to see more fluidity in it.

I'll keep my eye on Mata against Palace.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
What are the United fans thoughts on Rooney's rumoured new deal? As an outsider imo it sets a bad precedent giving him that kind of money given the situation United are in.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
What are the United fans thoughts on Rooney's rumoured new deal? As an outsider imo it sets a bad precedent giving him that kind of money given the situation United are in.


Financially, we're not really in 'a situation'.

I don't know, I don't really like him, but I don't think we can afford to lose him when we need to strengthen elsewhere.
King Luis
17 years ago
1 month ago
3,111
Financially, we're not really in 'a situation'.

I don't know, I don't really like him, but I don't think we can afford to lose him when we need to strengthen elsewhere.


I mean situation in terms of needing to rebuild the team, any potential signings will see what Rooney's rumoured to be on and want something near to what he's on.
tmatthew
17 years ago
4 months ago
771
Well, that depends on how good they are.
Shola
15 years ago
5 years ago
2,708
You're other wingers are average though. Surely the solution is trying to get van Persie, Mata and Rooney as a a trio. And besides loads of wingers these days barely put any crosses over. It's hardly the only responsibility of wingers these days.

Didn't Man Utd have a lot of success in like 08/09 by moving Rooney/Tevez out to the wings.
bluemoon.
17 years ago
2 months ago
2,411
Premium
I appreciate that United don't want to lose one of their most high-profile players but Rooney really isn't worth £300k p/w. It also seems pretty naive to be giving him a 6 year deal giving his fitness levels over the years.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
You're other wingers are average though. Surely the solution is trying to get van Persie, Mata and Rooney as a a trio. And besides loads of wingers these days barely put any crosses over. It's hardly the only responsibility of wingers these days.

Didn't Man Utd have a lot of success in like 08/09 by moving Rooney/Tevez out to the wings.


The solution, in one sense, is getting Januzaj/Mata/Rooney and Van Persie into the team at one time, but there's deeper problems than that. Throughout the team there has to be a change of mindset, a commitment not to hoof the ball from the back, to work it through the middle, not to panic and send it wide, to move the ball quicker, to make more intelligent runs, to close down higher up the pitch, to get Van Persie the service he needs, to take responsibility when its needed and move the ball on quicker when its not.

A great deal of it is confidence, and their simply is none at the minute.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
I appreciate that United don't want to lose one of their most high-profile players but Rooney really isn't worth £300k p/w. It also seems pretty naive to be giving him a 6 year deal giving his fitness levels over the years.


It depends really. I don't like the idea of paying a 34 year old Rooney that much.

But whats the alternative? Lose him for something in the region of £20-30m; given his contract situation I think it would be the lower of the two. Then you're looking at a replacement -there's no guarantees we'd find one anyway- but the calibre of player we'd have to look at would be very, very pricey and demand high wages.

The Rooney contract is in some ways zero risk, yes, he has his fitness concerns, but its a player embedded in the club and has consistently scored goals. Placed in the context of finding a replacement, losing him to a domestic rival and the costs concerned with all that I'm not sure as its an awful deal as you're trying to make out.
Sam
17 years ago
1 year ago
5,092
Rooney is a good player, but he's not a £300k p/w good player. I'd rather we just let him go in all honesty.
bluemoon.
17 years ago
2 months ago
2,411
Premium
It depends really. I don't like the idea of paying a 34 year old Rooney that much.

But whats the alternative? Lose him for something in the region of £20-30m; given his contract situation I think it would be the lower of the two. Then you're looking at a replacement -there's no guarantees we'd find one anyway- but the calibre of player we'd have to look at would be very, very pricey and demand high wages.

The Rooney contract is in some ways zero risk, yes, he has his fitness concerns, but its a player embedded in the club and has consistently scored goals. Placed in the context of finding a replacement, losing him to a domestic rival and the costs concerned with all that I'm not sure as its an awful deal as you're trying to make out.

I'm not saying it's entirely without it's merits, he is still a good player and I can understand United wanting to keep him out of Chelsea's clutches, but giving that much money to somebody who has twice tried to publicly force an exit (and supposedly making him captain in the process) doesn't seem like a smart decision to me. He's not worth the money and the idea that he'll just happily see out his contract without demanding more in a few years time is naive, he's already demonstrated on more than one occasion that he's willing to rock the boat to get what he wants and I don't understand why United would try and build their team around somebody like that (even more so when you consider the likelihood of him maintaining his fitness until he's 33).

That said I accept that there aren't any obvious alternatives without their own down-sides. Personally, I would sell him, stick with RVP as your main striker and instead throw that money at somebody like Arturo Vidal. Simultaneously giving you the nice PR boost and solving a large chunk of your problems in central midfield. I know that's unlikely to happen though.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
I'm not saying it's entirely without it's merits, he is still a good player and I can understand United wanting to keep him out of Chelsea's clutches, but giving that much money to somebody who has twice tried to publicly force an exit (and supposedly making him captain in the process) doesn't seem like a smart decision to me. He's not worth the money and the idea that he'll just happily see out his contract without demanding more in a few years time is naive, he's already demonstrated on more than one occasion that he's willing to rock the boat to get what he wants and I don't understand why United would try and build their team around somebody like that (even more so when you consider the likelihood of him maintaining his fitness until he's 33).

That said I accept that there aren't any obvious alternatives without their own down-sides. Personally, I would sell him, stick with RVP as your main striker and instead throw that money at somebody like Arturo Vidal. Simultaneously giving you the nice PR boost and solving a large chunk of your problems in central midfield. I know that's unlikely to happen though.


We are all approaching this from the angle that there is 3 options. Keep Rooney, sell Rooney to Chelsea, or sell Rooney abroad. I don't think there's many that would disagree with the third one, but what if that option wasn't on the table? We've not heard so much as a whisper that Rooney would consider a move abroad, and between keeping Rooney or selling him to Chelsea I'm sure the club would be willing to take a financial hit to keep him. If that option is off the table, I can completely see why it makes sense.

As for him demanding more when he's 33, thats neither here nor there, this will clearly be his last big contract, with us. If he wants to stay beyond that he can take the incremental 1 year deals we offer older players or he can ship off, it's not worth concerning yourself with.

Van Persie is going to be 31 in August, a quality player, no doubt, but I just don't see it prudent to base any long term planning around as injury plagued a player as he into his early 30s, in fairness, his game doesn't really on physical attributes so much, so if he can stay injury free he might have more years in him, but I think he's the bigger risk than Rooney.

As for Vidal, I think it's a no go anyway, but the club have been talking about these players (or as close as we will get to talking about players) in the hope or expectation that Rooney would stay. Rooney staying does not necessarily hinder that pursuit, arguably it may enhance it, especially if we drop out of the Champion's League, because he's a very highly rated player in Europe, and its going to be far easier to convince players of the calibre we want that this season has been a blip if players aren't fleeing.
Slashman X
17 years ago
4 months ago
6,000
Premium
Jamieandhisego
17 years ago
1 year ago
841
After years of watching Berbatov at his peak, sometimes I take that sort of control for granted.
The Platypus
13 years ago
1 year ago
1,784
Mata's touch was always fucking exceptional.
Slashman X
17 years ago
4 months ago
6,000
Premium
It was more the 'glide' which I found mesmerizing
The Platypus
13 years ago
1 year ago
1,784
Well, yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.
.verse
12 years ago
3 months ago
871
Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.

Mata isn't a winger, that's the issue. His best games always came from him playing through the middle.

With the sort of system Moyes is trying to use, Mata isn't the solution. While he can obviously play wide, he'll always favour drifting back inside. He's not a big crosser of the ball and he doesn't have the pace to beat the fullback and get in behind. His defensive weak points will also be exposed more if he's played in a more traditional 4-4-2 role. All in all, if Moyes wanted a winger so badly, he definitely purchased the wrong player.

Part of me tends to think it was a slight panic buy with the uncertainly that's surrounded Rooney's future. If Rooney goes, Mata slots straight in.
.verse
12 years ago
3 months ago
871
As for Vidal, I think it's a no go anyway, but the club have been talking about these players (or as close as we will get to talking about players) in the hope or expectation that Rooney would stay. Rooney staying does not necessarily hinder that pursuit, arguably it may enhance it, especially if we drop out of the Champion's League, because he's a very highly rated player in Europe, and its going to be far easier to convince players of the calibre we want that this season has been a blip if players aren't fleeing.

Vidal isn't going to happen. He signed a new deal until 2017 in December last year. And there's possible talks that Juve are looking to extend that for another year already. Pogba will most likely re-sign also, he'd be stupid to leave just yet. While Marchisio wants to commit his future long-term to the club, which will probably happen also. All the talk about these sorts of players is just that, talk. You'd like to think Rooney wouldn't that gullible in thinking they'd realistically be signed. That said, United need to remain in the Champions League, if they don't it will be hard to convince the type of players required to join given the performances this season, and those who've got intentions on leaving.
Ninja
14 years ago
6 years ago
5,341
Mata isn't a winger, that's the issue. His best games always came from him playing through the middle.

With the sort of system Moyes is trying to use, Mata isn't the solution. While he can obviously play wide, he'll always favour drifting back inside. He's not a big crosser of the ball and he doesn't have the pace to beat the fullback and get in behind. His defensive weak points will also be exposed more if he's played in a more traditional 4-4-2 role. All in all, if Moyes wanted a winger so badly, he definitely purchased the wrong player.

Part of me tends to think it was a slight panic buy with the uncertainly that's surrounded Rooney's future. If Rooney goes, Mata slots straight in.


Nothing suggests that he's been bought to be a winger, including how we've used him so far.
Croy
13 years ago
4 months ago
207
Well, yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.


He needed to keep the momentum going without changing his feet to get a better touch at the ball with his left foot. Quite brilliant from him actually
The Platypus
13 years ago
1 year ago
1,784
I wasn't so much wondering about why he did it, as how he thought about it/pulled it off.
Croy
13 years ago
4 months ago
207
I wasn't so much wondering about why he did it, as how he thought about it/pulled it off.


Thought as much. Anyway, things like this are instinctual, as in it comes naturally to some players... although it takes a talented player to have instincts like this ofc

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