Old Trafford Lounge

Mata on the wing in a 4-4-2 is just inexcusable, it's a waste of his talent. If Moyes doesn't change formation/tactic soon I think that'll prove to be his downfall. I'd be more understanding of our bad performances if he was trying things/tinkering to get us going and playing the way he wants, but he's just stuck with 4-4-2 and hoping it gets better. It's not going to work, he hasn't figured that out yet, It's pathetic.

For some reason he won't play Adnan and Mata in the same lineup. RVP upfront, Wayne behind him with Adnan and Mata either side all roaming in a 4-2-3-1 formation, sorted. Or if Rooney goes, Mata behind RVP, Adnan/Zaha/Kagawa or whoever alongside.

The persistence in Young and Valencia is just mind boggling, I'd rather we play Lingard than them both, or Zaha. Obviously he's allowed his adjustment period, Moyes, but we're not seeing any development. Mata was a development, but he's just stuck him out on the wing, seemingly just to give Adnan some rest, rotating them both.

RVP has had injuries, wherever this is linked to the training methods we don't know for sure, but knowing RVP's history with injuries/fitness then it makes sense him having a bad season. Then again when he has played he has scored often, except Wednesday of course. I really hope that Moyes knows that our bad performances aren't to do with luck, that he's just defending his team in the media.

I'll be very worried if Moyes doesn't start changing formation/tactic soon. I'm actually worried for the Olympiakos match.

The whole setup is a huge problem, the way we're playing is wrong.



Playing Mata out on the right in a 4-4-2, just inexcusable. Sure he drifted inside, but if you're going wing attack then why not just play with the wingers we have, why buy Mata? At Fulham, and most games, it's clearly been Rooney/RVP up front, two wingers and two MCs. 4-4-2. Switching to 4-2-3-1 would be simple enough, RVP up front with Rooney/Adnan/Mata behind, logical. We played 4-4-2 against Stoke, lost, and then did it again against Fulham, stupid. We nearly lost to the worst team in the league, at home.

If it stays like this, Moyes will be out quicker. I want him to do well, and I've been patient, but he's not changing anything. He has no plan b.

I had this exact same argument on redcafe so I'm just going to copy it across. He's clearly not playing on the right in a 4-4-2.

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/juan-mata-everything-that-matas.383131/page-60#post-15079538

These two articles are my arguments back, I'll place them here too.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1944781-moyes-tactics-to-blame-for-manchester-united-defeat-to-stoke

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1954224-david-moyes-will-be-sacked-if-he-continues-using-his-current-tactics



EDIT: Your points are good points though, I'm not being aggressive either incase you think I am. I think we can both agree things need to improve and we're both trying to not sink into depression!

Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.

Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.

No I know you're not, hence why I wanted to make it clear that the tone I wrote that in was aimed at him and not applicable to this discussion.

That Stoke map is interesting in his argument, I don't think you could present one that shows a player with more freedom to roam around the pitch than that! I mean apart from the blobs on the right (which is obviously where he is lining up, I'm not trying to argue he's playing behind the striker), and I suspect those are mostly because of where he was being asked to move defensively, they're literally all over the pitch.

Compare it to Ashley Young's from the same game, theres subtle but noticeable differences, he played wider and did not roam as much.

Frankly, its a problem of tactics only in one sense, the way we're playing, in terms of formation I can't see anything to be criticised.

It's a somewhat pointless argument, Mata is not the solution to the problem individually, unless there's a team commitment to playing decent football he's always going to be wasted, but just watch him closely against Palace and I think you'll see there's very little 'wide' about where he is playing.

What are the United fans thoughts on Rooney's rumoured new deal? As an outsider imo it sets a bad precedent giving him that kind of money given the situation United are in.

Financially, we're not really in 'a situation'.

I don't know, I don't really like him, but I don't think we can afford to lose him when we need to strengthen elsewhere.

You're other wingers are average though. Surely the solution is trying to get van Persie, Mata and Rooney as a a trio. And besides loads of wingers these days barely put any crosses over. It's hardly the only responsibility of wingers these days.

Didn't Man Utd have a lot of success in like 08/09 by moving Rooney/Tevez out to the wings.

I appreciate that United don't want to lose one of their most high-profile players but Rooney really isn't worth £300k p/w. It also seems pretty naive to be giving him a 6 year deal giving his fitness levels over the years.

It depends really. I don't like the idea of paying a 34 year old Rooney that much.

But whats the alternative? Lose him for something in the region of £20-30m; given his contract situation I think it would be the lower of the two. Then you're looking at a replacement -there's no guarantees we'd find one anyway- but the calibre of player we'd have to look at would be very, very pricey and demand high wages.

The Rooney contract is in some ways zero risk, yes, he has his fitness concerns, but its a player embedded in the club and has consistently scored goals. Placed in the context of finding a replacement, losing him to a domestic rival and the costs concerned with all that I'm not sure as its an awful deal as you're trying to make out.

I'm not saying it's entirely without it's merits, he is still a good player and I can understand United wanting to keep him out of Chelsea's clutches, but giving that much money to somebody who has twice tried to publicly force an exit (and supposedly making him captain in the process) doesn't seem like a smart decision to me. He's not worth the money and the idea that he'll just happily see out his contract without demanding more in a few years time is naive, he's already demonstrated on more than one occasion that he's willing to rock the boat to get what he wants and I don't understand why United would try and build their team around somebody like that (even more so when you consider the likelihood of him maintaining his fitness until he's 33).

That said I accept that there aren't any obvious alternatives without their own down-sides. Personally, I would sell him, stick with RVP as your main striker and instead throw that money at somebody like Arturo Vidal. Simultaneously giving you the nice PR boost and solving a large chunk of your problems in central midfield. I know that's unlikely to happen though.

Why are you so against playing Mata on the wing?

And Ninja's right about the obsession with tactics being arbitrary. Often the tactical lineups on MOTD seem to be decided by how progressive a manager is perceived to be. The 'Classic English 4-4-2' normally has a big man, a little man and two wingers. Could easily be describing the current 4-2-3-1.

As for Vidal, I think it's a no go anyway, but the club have been talking about these players (or as close as we will get to talking about players) in the hope or expectation that Rooney would stay. Rooney staying does not necessarily hinder that pursuit, arguably it may enhance it, especially if we drop out of the Champion's League, because he's a very highly rated player in Europe, and its going to be far easier to convince players of the calibre we want that this season has been a blip if players aren't fleeing.

Mata isn't a winger, that's the issue. His best games always came from him playing through the middle.

With the sort of system Moyes is trying to use, Mata isn't the solution. While he can obviously play wide, he'll always favour drifting back inside. He's not a big crosser of the ball and he doesn't have the pace to beat the fullback and get in behind. His defensive weak points will also be exposed more if he's played in a more traditional 4-4-2 role. All in all, if Moyes wanted a winger so badly, he definitely purchased the wrong player.

Part of me tends to think it was a slight panic buy with the uncertainly that's surrounded Rooney's future. If Rooney goes, Mata slots straight in.

Well, yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.

I wasn't so much wondering about why he did it, as how he thought about it/pulled it off.