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Jason
hajdekalle
caleyjag
Gillou57
caleyjag
Gillou57
Ok sorry mate. Thanks
Jason
terrypmarshall
Other then that I'm very glad that this has been achieved because if done right, it will change football manager for the better
sleety17
caleyjag
If you click the big number in the middle, it'll bring up a list of all changes, filtered by type or by club.
They were done a few days ago I think. If not, you can submit them yourself
sleety17
caleyjag
caleyjag
I've finally finished off a little executable file that will run on your PC, automatically updating Football Manager 2014 in the background which means that any time you start a new game you'll always have the most up-to-date data update that we have.
When you run the app, minimise it to your system tray, then right click on the Data Update icon to select an Import interval - either every 30 minutes, 1 hour or 2 hours. You can also set this to Manual and just use the Manual update button on the app itself.
The app will notify you when it has updated FM2014.
Piginho
Judgment can be affected by bias towards your favourite teams and I can see scenarios where people are not happy with the changes made and then either just change them back, or even go the other way. Are the changes approved automatically (after all, you imply that changes made a few seconds ago will be incorporated) or has someone got to approve each change (you imply that you do this after you've checked your eMails, but then it wouldn't be instant), but would imply that you have control over the changes and hence your own bias comes into play?
Is this changing the official Steam updated game or does one have to sign up for it? In other words, if I do nothing but play my normal game, but connected to Internet, allowing Steam to update as and when, will I only get SI approved updates, or am I going to get your "Wickipaedia" style updates as well?
In principle it's a good idea, subject to the answers to my questions above.
Jason
Read the thread.... SI only release two data updates, one with the game and one in February. If you want your game maintained you'd have to download one of the many hundred databases that people create, and are solely maintained by one person, the difference here however is that, thousands upon thousands of people can actually put real life changes in, so when one person doesn't know a particular league for his own update, one/two/three of the many thousands may know the league the one guy doesn't, there for your more likely to get it more accurate if 1000's of people are adding stuff instead of just the one.
Bias doesn't come into it as at this moment in time you can only transfer people either from free agents, club to club or loans, change a players position, adjust contract changes, bans, injuries and player roles.
You also have the option to filter what you download, so if you only want transfers and contracts that's all you'd tick, meaning you'd not get any of the positional changes etc.
Piginho
As the OP though, did you read your own post?
Within your quoted section is the following quote:-
"Positions - Alter player position attributes (1-20) for all positions (GK, AML, ST, WB etc.)"
Now to me, that shows the facility to change a player's abilities. For example, a fullback may have a rating of 20 as fullback, but only 10 as a wingback and maybe 5 as a winger. A biased fan could adjust all three positions up to 20, therefore improving the player, so we're not just talking about changing contracts and transfers etc.
SI make plenty of money and can afford all of the growing facilities that they have and use for preparing their database. I think you've answered one of my questions though. This is not going to affect the official SI prepared database, but is at the moment just an option. I hope I've got that right. Although I'm often disappointed with SI's database and in particular the way certain players are rated, at least everyone using it has the same data. If you are playing multiplayer games you have to make sure each player uses the same database, do you not?
Anyhow, based on the quote above, that I read from your OP, bias most definitely can come into it.
mr.SPANKY
caleyjag
Attributes is pace, tackling, finishing etc.
Positions is goalkeeper, central defender etc.
So no, you can not alter attributes (yet)
caleyjag
The "instant" or "live" aspect of the data update is that there are no release dates. When you click Download, you get the very latest changes we've approved. I usually approve things within half an hour (usually within 5 minutes if I'm online at the time) although I do take time off between 11pm and 8am to sleep.
As JL94 says, ANYONE can update this, and I really hope they do. The bias MIGHT come into play when it comes to positional attributes, but the same would be true if you are a researcher for the game anyway, AND if you were 1 person making all the changes in the editor.
However, I'm contactable on Twitter and via Email, so if there are any updates that you don't agree with, you can let me know.
Piginho
Yes, I understand the difference between attributes and positions.
I note that you say "you can not alter attributes (yet)", which suggests that in future you may be able to. This becomes a real minefield, potentially.
Adjusting the values of positions will affect how well a player will play if he becomes more natural in a position that you want to use him in than he currently is; so although more subtle than attribute changes it still allows for bias in overestimating a players flexibility.
caleyjag
The difference - the BIG difference - with this is that if you don't agree with positions, attributes or any other type of information being changed, untick it before downloading it.
I've already got positions unticked on the auto-update tool exactly because of that, but the choice is there for people to add changes, and the choice exists for people to choose if they want to download it or not.
Adding/editing people in further detail will be added at a later date (it's a bit of work to get done), but like everything else, filters will exist if you choose to ignore it in your download
Korky Blues
Piginho
Your sentence above changes from first person plural "we've" to first person singular "I", so you've almost answered one of my questions. You are the sole arbiter of the changes that are made (or are you in fact a "we" )? Now, you've put in the work and are prepared to be within half an hour of providing virtually live approvals (apart from sleep time/can't you just drink lots of coffee?) so why shouldn't you be the one that gets to have full control, but I'm always nervous of this. SI have a large team of people to come to consensus on these things, to some degree reducing the effects of bias. Leaving one person to agree or disagree with changes doesn't sit well with me.
Thank you for accepting that bias might come into play. Yes if you were a researcher for the game, the same could be true, but final decisions are team decisions, not individual, so as I said above, less potential for bias. People such as "LFCMarshall" have devoted much time and energy into trying to make databases more accurately reflect the real world and whilst they will take into consideration the views of others, they decide what changes to make and of course, bias is potentially there, in fact almost inevitable, because we would all assign different values to players.
What you're doing has the potential to take in the views of a much wider number of people, but doesn't seem to weigh differing opinions in the balance. For example:- I think that Luis Suarez is vastly underrated by SI in their database. Yes, he's a "Marmite" character, you love him or hate him. But in FM2013 he only has a potential rating, or "PA" of 173. Now, many people believe that after Messi and Ronaldo, Suarez is the next best player in the world. Plenty would disagree. Using your update system, I could not yet alter his attributes and PA, but I could ensure that he has 20 for any position forward of midfield and probably quite justifiably. You could approve this, but have someone very soon afterwards disagree and try to change it back, or if they hate Suarez, make the positional scores even lower than original.
If your system offered a more consensus type method of changing things, in particular player's ability, be it attribute or position scores or anything else, it would become a really good way to help make the game be very close to real life.
Good to know, but as I suggested above, this could lead to players yo-yoing up and down as you first approve, then possibly revoke your initial approval.
The idea has great potential, but I'm yet to be convinced that one person sat in judgment of proposed changes from the wide FM2014 playing community will be able to do a better job than the hundreds, if not thousands, of researchers that SI currently use. Yes, their database always leaves much to be desired, but they've been doing it professionally now for over a decade.
Thanks for responding and in particular for accepting the potential of bias. I wanted that to be understood loud and clear and if you as the originator of this idea accept it, the wider community on here can not deny it.
caleyjag
So if someone came and said Player X has finishing of 20, and another said no, it's 15, I should approve the two opinions resulting in a finishing stat of 17/18? It's a simple thing to do (takes 2 minutes to change).
At the moment, I'm the only person approving things. Reason being that the site is small, so whilst there are perhaps 10-20 submissions per day, it's easily handled. I will be adding more people (trustworthy people - perhaps people who in the past created data updates, if they are interested) to be able to help out with approvals.
From what I understand of SI's procedure for data changes btw, there is actually 1 person who oversees everything, to verify/approve everything that is submitted.
Piginho
I've suggested in one of my other responses that consensus is better than individual opinion in most cases. It's not perfect, but has more chance to accurately reflect reality, or at least the majority perception of reality. SI produce a database based largely on consensus, not individual opinion, or with one person approving the final database.
To be fair, I haven't looked at your LiveUpdate website, so have no idea on how easy it would be to do what you suggest in practice. However, if this really takes off and people from all over make loads of updates, are you suggesting that we scroll through thousands of changes just to untick the ones we don't like or agree with? Also, no two people are likely to have exactly the same database, so it will work well for solo players, but not so good for multiplayer games.
If you're taking this to the next level as you suggest above, please get a team of people around you to approve changes like this by consensus. Can you honestly say that your knowledge of football is so extensive that you know each player, even a 16 year old from China for example, so well, that if someone suggests attribute changes, you are in a good position to judge whether they are appropriate or not?
With hundreds of thousands of players in the game and many different attributes for each player, the potential is there for millions of database changes. Who wants to wade through all that unticking what they don't like?
caleyjag
The type of change is filtered - you don't untick each change you don't want, you untick the TYPE of change.
Transfers
Contracts
Injuries
Bans
Positions
Roles
So in your case, you'd untick Positions, as there is too much bias/opinion applied to those updates that may result in them being incorrect (in your opinion, of course)
Now, I'm not saying I know every player, or if someone should have 8 or 9 for heading for example, but I've got to trust those that do change the stats that they believe they are adjusting them FAIRLY. If someone disagrees with the change, I'm happy to listen. Changing things by consensus with a team of people is too difficult to do. It slows the process down, and even then you're still relying on peoples opinion of what they think the change should be. Are they still in a position to reach consensus of the 16 year old from China if they don't know the player? If the person submitting the information is more knowledgable about that player in question, shouldn't more weight be applied to their opinion than those that approve it?
Piginho
I'd be in even more trouble in my Suarez example if you did this. He's got so many haters that he'd end up League 1 quality.
This is good. It's making you think what problems you'll get and how to make your system better, but no, this isn't the answer. If you're going to do statistical analysis on opinions, you might want to ignore the extreme ends of the bell curve. That said, if you've a player like Suarez that divides opinion so much, no kind of statistical analysis will give him a fair set of stats. Most people (much more than 50%) are unable to separate their feelings for individuals when making judgments on their abilities, so as to make a really objective view on such a player.
Yes, most will grudgingly accept that Suarez is a fantastic player and might secretly wish he was playing for their team, but would they really accept how good he actually is? How do you find the very small minority of people who are capable of a higher degree of objectivity?
Based on your daily submissions at present, you'd have about 1,000 changes in two months, but if it takes off due to publicity, it could happen much quicker. A lot for all of us to do if we want to individually untick the bits we don't like.
Obviously one person will eventually sign off the database at SI, but your not suggesting that the one person concerned has gone through the entire database to see if he/she is happy with it's total content? No, the SI database is as a result of consensus, which I acknowledge is also a flawed method.
caleyjag
There is no perfect solution for solving opinion or bias - there never will be. It's not fact. So reaching consensus on issues HAS to be done via an averaging out of submissions, or by trusting another persons judgement isn't clouded as much by their opinion of the player. Unfortunately, that will always be the situation.
The ultimate solution, is for us all to become Vulcans.
Piginho
Ah, OK, so I'd accept all but positions, as the other elements are matters of fact rather than opinion, assuming that they are reported accurately. I can leave positions (and later attributes) unticked as these are matters of opinion, but it's not done on individual player basis, so I would only leave player changes ticked, if on balance I thought more were right than wrong and any I think are wrong I can report to you to see if you agree.
"but I've got to trust those that do change the stats that they believe they are adjusting them FAIRLY"
That's the real big problem that I perceive with what you are doing. The first person in China who watches his local team and is a big fan of the 16 year old I mentioned before, thinks he's the best thing since sliced Messi and submits some, in his opinion, fair adjustments to this player. You're none the wiser, so you think, OK, he must know the player better than me, so yep, I'll approve the change. What you didn't know is it's his dad that's submitted the changes
Next thing you know; someone else, or maybe several people, who've also watched this lad, say "no, he's rubbish, or certainly nothing like as good as has been suggested." So now you've got someone, or more, suggesting another change and again, you're none the wiser, so what do you do? You've already accepted the change, but a change back involves an appeal to you and as you've already said, you'd have little knowledge to base your decision on.
Hence my suggestion that player's abilities could yoyo up and down, depending on which person's "fair" assessment you accept.
Piginho
Now you're thinking outside the box.
Do you know where we can find some to help with this?
To be fair, you've accepted and acknowledged the drawbacks with what you're offering, which is all I wanted to see, because people often get so excited with these sorts of things that they fail to see that it's not all rosy. I think you're system has great potential for solo play and will enhance the experience for a lot of players. I don't think it has relevance for tournament play or challenges, as these rely on everyone being on and having knowledge of the same database for it to be fair.
Particularly when you introduce attribute changes, you'll have to think carefully how to address the issues that you recognise, that is if you can't actually find any real Vulcans.
The proof of the pudding will be how many people adopt your system and use your website to do their updates. Will be interesting to see how it compares, for example, with the afore-mentioned LFCMarshall in terms of download levels, once it's fully taken off.
Thank you for your efforts to make the FM experience more enjoyable. I wish you well and hope you can address the potential issues created by opinion based assessments in a better way than is done elsewhere. If you achieve this successfully I will be one of many users of your system.