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Slashman X
JCash3000
Ninja
Of course not, but by signing their players City and United weakened them to the point where they've gone from three 6th place finishes to fighting relegation.
If we argue that Götze signing for Bayern is a 'deliberate attempt to weaken the opposition' then that has to be seen as part of the web of signings like Dante, Neuer, Gustavo, Mandzukic and Gomez because Dortmund are their only real rivals atm, and truthfully this is the first major signing they've made from them in a while (unless I'm having a massive memory blank).
Slashman X
You're massively over-simplifying what happened at Villa.
Also the argument is about weakening the 'direct' opposition so basically only players bought from Arsenal could maybe, at a stretch, count
Telegram Sam
You're coming dangerously close to sound extremely hypocritical here, as I can't see an awful lot of difference between Bayern and Manchester City when it comes to their transfer policies. You make the point that City have never poached a player from their direct rivals, but am I right in thinking that you came close to luring John Terry away from Chelsea in 2009? Wayne Rooney in 2010? I get the impression that City would buy from United or Chelsea in a heartbeat if they could, but they just haven't been successful in doing so at this point. Also, I know people like to scoff at the idea of Arsenal being regarded as title challengers these days, but you bought Adebayor from us in 2009 despite the fact we finished six places ahead of you, and Nasri from us in 2011 when we ended up 3 points behind you due to our end of season collapse.
Anyway, the point is, City have used their financial might to bully Arsenal around and poach our best players, despite both clubs holding similar ambitions at the time - pretty much exactly what Bayern have just done to Dortmund. The main difference is that whilst Bayern are comfortably the biggest club in Germany, both in terms of stature and financial prowess, Manchester City face more competition in the Premier League from the likes of United and Chelsea. City would happily buy someone like Juan Mata if they could, and wouldn't give two shits about competitiveness and 'fair play' in the process if it meant weakening a rival and strengthening themselves.
Eric Portapotty
Flash.
Bayern are by far the biggest club in Germany so are able to buy players from their rivals with ease.
City aren't the biggest club so their rivals players are happy to stay where they are. All they can offer is more money.
Telegram Sam
Perhaps, I can't remember. Either way, if he wanted to come and they could have agreed a deal, City would have had no problems buying a direct rival's star player.
K3V0
JCash3000
...and still wont win anything in europe
The Platypus
bluemoon.
If you think that then you're missing my point. I'm not saying Bayern are evil for buying a player off a direct rival or even because they have too much money. I'm saying Bayern are bad for the Bundesliga because they consistently pick off their current rival's best players in a bid to strengthen themselves and weaken their opponents and in doing so cementing their place at the top of the pack whilst undermining the growth of the league in general. (Gabrielle Marcotti has done a fair more eloquent piece on it here.)
City may have spent a lot of money on players and I'm sure we'd be happy to buy some of our rivals best players but only one of our signings has directly led to a rival weakening to a position where it is a detriment to the league. For the record, that's Samir Nasri because his departure (as well as Cesc's) were a major cause in the 2011/12 title race only being a two horse race. Bayern on the other hand have a long history of buying their direct rivals best player, just in the last few years they've bought Manuel Neuer from Schalke and Mario Gomez from Stuttgart.
Telegram Sam
I'd argue that Bayern's transfer policy is not to dissimilar from Manchester City, and that the only real difference is that Bayern are by far and away the most powerful club in Germany, whilst City can't express the same sort of authority in the Premier League because of the presence of United, Chelsea and, to a lesser extent, Arsenal and Liverpool. Bayern are wanting to strengthen their squad each summer just as City do, except they're able to do so with greater ease due to their superior stature and finances in comparison with the Bundesliga. It seems to be an issue with the different dynamics of the Premier League and the Bundesliga, rather than differing transfer policies between Bayern and City. As I said before, City would be perfectly comfortable buying from their rivals and undermining the growth of the league if they were able to do so, but they can't due to other big teams in England.
With regards to your second point, you can go ahead and include Gael Clichy's transfer as well Nasri's as he was an important part of our side when you bought him. Furthermore, you certainly tried to get John Terry as I previously said, even if you eventually failed and he signed a new contract with Chelsea. Also, are Schalke and Stuttgart even realistic contenders for the Bundesliga? Not consistently, anyway. If you're going to use the signings of Neuer and Gomez as examples of Bayern trying to weaken the opposition and stifle the growth of the league, it's fair to compare your acquisitions of Gareth Barry and James Milner when Aston Villa were still a side pushing for Europe, along with signing Joleon Lescott and Jack Rodwell from Everton. If you're going to mention Bayern buying from Stuttgart and Schalke then I'd say it's more than fair enough to compare that to City purchasing players from Aston Villa and Everton.
JCash3000
Both are regular starters in europe, Schalke even reached the semis of the CL not long ago and the quarters this season, so please dont compare them to relegation bound Villa and 8thplace-bookers Everton.
Telegram Sam
I was talking about Aston Villa at a time when they were pushing for Europe, which is roughly when City bought Milner and Barry from them. Also, Everton have only finished 8th once in the last six years and have finished higher than that in the other five years.
bluemoon.
You could argue that but you'd be wrong (and in the same sentence you've basically proved my point that City and Bayern are entirely different with the only thing in common being that they both spend quite a lot of money on transfers). City don't have a long record of consistently buying their rivals best player in a bid to eliminate them as competition. I'm not arguing about what City would like to do, I'm talking purely one what they have done.
Clichy doesn't count for several reasons:
- He wasn't poached/sold reluctantly, Arsenal were already trying to sell him, Liverpool were the frontrunners iirc.
- He wasn't your best player, let alone one of your best players
- His departure didn't weaken Arsenal to the extent that they had to aim lower.
One of the main reasons Schalke and Stuttgart aren't realistic contenders for the Bundesliga is because Bayern bought their best players when they were trying to establish themselves as consistent title challengers.Admittedly it could be said City did the same to Aston Villa but that would be inaccurate. Villa were never title challengers, at their peak they were challenging for a CL spot. Besides which their main struggle in that period wasn't losing Barry or Milner it was the series of poor, costly signings by Martin O'Neill followed by the highly misguided appointments of first Houllier and then McLeish, who both left terrible legacies behind. Finally there's a decentargument that Aston Villa falling away from CL contention hasn't had much of a bearing on the quality of the Premier League anyway. As for Everton, Rodwell is inconsequential, he barely played in his last season at Everton so how his departure could have such a negative impact I don't know, Lescott might be, I'm not too sure tbh, my memory of that particular saga is shaky.
Franck
Telegram Sam
I was going to write a lengthy reply but basically, this. I really am not a fan of Bayern and would love to see them crash and burn in Europe again, but I think there's plenty of aspects of City's transfer policy that have had a negative impact on the Premier League so there's plenty of irony in a City fan calling Bayern "a cancer" in German football.
Slashman X
The Platypus
Basically I'm saying that Germany is much cooler than England.
bluemoon.
This is why nobody takes Denmark seriously.
Hibee
I'd imagine Cavani will be happy to be linking up with Lavezzi again, though there are a few stories that the little Argie could be off to one of the Milan clubs.
Jonas
Ninja
I don't think it's come from Bayern.
Klopp said in his presser that Bayern wouldn't leak it, seems like it was pretty common knowledge in the football world with the deal agreed after Dortmund beat Malaga 2 weeks ago, and he's agent has told interested parties (basically everyone) that that is the case.
Sounds like the leak has come from a third party, with Madrid clearly capable of knowing and having massive amounts to gain from leaking it it may well have been from there (the only thing against this is that if Madrid had leaked it would they have leaked it to Bild? I'd argue probably to cover their backs, Marca covering it would stink of Madrid).
Shola
imo constantly buying young players from smaller clubs (and probably paying very little) is worse than buying from title rivals who are probably selling at the higher than market value and can afford a replacement. By keeping the small clubs small and weak it's probably going to cause more of a chasm of wealth than Bayern spending a lot on flavours of the month.
Not that I think there is anything wrong with it. I think it's excellent management.
Regarding Draxler. - Is it really that unthinkable to move from Schalke to Dortmund?
Franck
It's the biggest rivalry there is in Germany. There is absolutely no chance of someone like Draxler making that transfer.
JCash3000
Jamieandhisego
Once they got into the Champion's League places, they then started to branch out to the bigger clubs of Europe that weren't going to win any trophies, so over the next two seasons they got the likes of David Silva from Valencia, Sergio Aguero from Atletico Madrid, James Milner from Aston Villa, Edin Dzeko from Wolfsburg etc. The problem is that when they should have kicking on with his policy and going after the likes of Hazard, Van Persie and co, for whatever reason, they fluffed this summer's transfer dealings and brought in substandard players. They almost reverted to their 2008/9 strategy by bringing in players like Scott Sinclair, Jack Rodwell and Javi Garcia, which would have been headline news five years ago.
There is also another factor that's being missed here- Everton have/always seem to be in financial turmoil and Aston Villa were actively trying to cut down their expenditure, so they have been using the money from these transfers to put into infrastructure. I don't know about Wolfsburg, but Atletico Madrid and Valencia are in a fuckton of debt too. City's transfer policy is no different from Chelsea's under Abrahmovich in the first few years, and the effects only really dependent on the players people buy with the money they get. The problem with Arsenal isn't that they lost Adebayor, it's that they didn't replace him with Falcao or Hulk, for example. Once City give clubs money for transfer fees, how they use it to remain competitive is their own prerogative and it's the same with Dortmund. Dortmund are now perceived as one of the top clubs in Europe, with an amazing stadium and reputation for playing brilliant football- and now Klopp, one of the best managers in Europe, has £34m to spend on his squad. How do you know he won't manage to make Dortmund even stronger than it is now?
JCash3000
Klopp will knoiw what to do with the 34M.... getting Eriksen from Ajax for example.
Jamieandhisego
That's why I said I don't know, I didn't know the extent of their backing. Do you think the point about Dortmund being able to reinvest is valid? Who would you buy with the money if you were the manager?