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#565161 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Well, if all the blogs and twitter updates so far is keeping the promises with their big words of change with body language, media, scout center, and all that fluff + the xG, then sure, let me spend those 40£ or how much it will be. Hopefully will I be 100% convinced when I see some video highlights of the (new) animations, though the lighting and Match UI is more exiting to me.
But before I even consider buying, will I find out if we can change the json file. If we can, ALL good then, and I'll throw them money around, if not ...yeaaarhhh I'm a pirate, or possible on a late sale.
FM20 ME with Billgates 7.4 or Thiago 2.0, is more then likely gonna be a more overall enjoyment to play with for a another year then FM21, if that is the case. I would be surprised if they actually got the physics right in FM21.
#565059 FM Engineers – Thiago (The beautiful game patches)
RellomQ
Small but important update. These are Thiago's own words on the changes:
#564510 FM Engineers – Thiago (The beautiful game patches)
RellomQ
The differences is in the numbers. For an example do V6 use these milisecond, before the team celebrate a goal "min_delay_for_celebrating_a_goal": 3000, // 3s - 12 slices
But Thiago 1.0 got this delay, "min_delay_for_celebrating_a_goal": 500, // 3s - 12 slices
So a difference in 1.5 seconds. This one, will not impact gameplay, but showcase, what difference they make on what you see.
Another example is V6 got a delay in "theoretical_max_diving_speed": 72000, and Thiago v1.0 got "theoretical_max_diving_speed": 75000,
This is not millisecond, but calculated by a scaler at 10000, so each 10000 value is a millisecond. So in other words, the diving speed got a difference of 0.3 second. These small changes, make the game look a little different, and change how you will feel the games tempo, flow or outcome is shown.
So for me to tell you, what the difference is, is like me telling you, that one piece of painting, uses resonance style, and the other uses modern deco or surrealistic ... What is the difference? I got no idea except from how they make me feel, they are all art to me, and I can only say what painting I like better in a given situation (But my opinions is subjective.)
To me is;
Billgates v6.0 (Official) – The most balanced, close to the original, and the slowest in tempo.
Verge 6.9 (Official) – A bit more varied in combinations compared to V6, overall the same.
Billgates v7.3 (Beta) – Closer to Thiago's speed values. So far, feels like that each players individuel AI behavior is better shown then the previous versions.
Thiago v1.0 (Official) – Got a higher tempo then the normal json file.
Hongik v2.8 (Official) – Slower paces then 7.3 and Thiago, but I had a feeling when testing it, that it could be a really good choice for many that like a varied showcase of attacking combinations for passing style football. Also, almost no skating in this version.
Thiago 1.3.5 (Beta) – Minor changes from v1.0, where Thiago found the sweet spot, for tempo for both players of high and low quality. In other words, so Lower league would feel like lower league tempo, and vice versa for leauges with higher quality players.
AGAIN, this is my observations, and completely subjective.
#564400 "All Football Manager Discussion" forum
RellomQ
Unpopular opinion: SI have done really good over the past few years, creating a streamlined ME for the broader audience, and keeping trolls like my self, out of the official forums.
#563844 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
They don't know what they are talking about then.
I'm not going to post on SI forums. I don't even see a point following what happens over there. Most people know that the real FM forums, is here, on FM scout, FMbase, and many more national forums. That is where the real fan base is, and where the truth are spoken about the game, both the good and the bad.
The 3D animations is not in the physic json file, but in a fmf file that needs to be unpacked with FM20 resource Archiver before you can see it. We know we can change the animations, but right now are we 100% not changing the animations, rather the opposite as they got their own speed values, durations, blends, pathing and all that good jazz. They are not influenced by physics one bit. Here is an example of how the animations coding look like for one animation: (note, there are proberbly 10k of those animations, if not more.)
{
author_speed : 2.610386,
behaviour_flags : 6,
category : "Pass Ball - Moving",
data_path : "anims/animations/pass/move_forward_in_270d_out_90d_softer_10cm_outstep_02a",
duration : 1.95,
events : [
{
time : 0.5833334,
type : "BlendStart"
},
{
time : 1.183333,
type : "BlendEnd"
},
{
absolute_pos : [0.161, 0.12, 0.09200001 ],
pos_relative_bone_ids : {
id : 3759965473,
mirrored_id : 2476108732
},
relative_pos : [0.1568171, 0.01036953, 0.1208007 ],
time : 1.12676,
type : "Contact"
}
],
footfall : [
[
[0.2666667, 0.2666667 ],
[0.65, 0.7666667 ],
[0.9833334, 1.016667 ],
[1.366667, 1.55 ]
],
[
[1.783333, 1.9 ]
]
],
linear_path_info : "linear_0d",
name : "pass_move_forward_in_270d_out_90d_softer_10cm_outstep_02a",
overall_distance_covered : 5.090252
},
#563697 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Link to the discord, is in my description, just bellow this text.
#563531 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Billgates v6.0
Verge v6.9
Billgates v7.2 beta2 "Template/test"
Are all downable without a role on the discord server, in the channel #downloads-beta-json-engine
If you want Thiago v1.2, can you PM me or Thiago on the discord.
#563519 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
I absolute need to remember that word "aberrations." That is the correct word, to have in mind when testing, or just playing. Physics do aberrations to the way animations look. But some animations are just bugged, or flawed. And some behaviors can we not change, such as the pointless stop to a ball at the sideline, where the player turns so slowly that the oppositions player can run half the field, and still get to it before he turned. We all hate that repeateable situation, and it happens to often.
When we are talking tactics, roles, instructions and all that jazz. Will the physics more then likely influence how they work. But we have not tested it ...actually, I'm testing tactics right now, but I think it will take days for me to conclude anything real, as I need quite the games played as a manager, and not only simulated to get the results I want. Not even sure how to test roles or instructions yet, but I'll figure it out somehow. But I think the box to box midfielder, by default is running more then he should with the ball, but knowing how much more or less, with our json files, is going to take long to figure out ... At least, I don't see any way to test this, but the hard way. The real hard way
#563508 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Can someone please make a clip of this? We are aware of a GK bug, where they freeze and is going to be changed for the next beta, but this do not sound like that. But I could be mistaken, and it could be the same thing.
#563503 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
This is an animation and not physics bug. There are plenty of them, unfortunately nothing we can do much about from the current file.
But the good news is, we do know where the animation file is, and possibly how to change them. But this would be a second project on its own. The file consist of 120k line of coding. So right now, is our focus on getting the next couple of releases out to streamline and give more options in overall gameplay. If FM21 files is not locked behind a wall of new decoding to be done, is this also priority when that hits.
#563478 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Yeah I guess you could say that. One thing is for sure. If we where to look at how my own and Billgates daily rhythm have changed, and how many hours we have used on this in 2 weeks. Is that not healthy or something we can maintain. Same goes for some of the other guys. We might be no life FM nerds, but we should eat and sleep normally, and neither of those things are happening.
Engine testers and just general helpers, that give objective feedback, is the best manpower to help us.
How many red cards, or yellow cards a game has. Is not really helpful, as we can test that easy with statistics. But how the game feel, where the game have odd animations, or the same repetitive things happening 6 times in a row, is the main problem, and the best feedback we can get. In other words, a story or video of what you saw, is better then numbers or calling a GK for too strong.
I look at it this way:
Unique situations = good
Repetitive situations = bad
Bad things happening in a game = can be a good thing for the overall realisme
Good things happening in a game = can be a bad thing for the overall realisme
Many seems to think, that only good things should happen in a game. And some of the feedback reflects that. That is not a realistic gameplay, players do make mistakes.
@Tommy Hughes
I tried that, but the file that overwrites our json, is hidden. I don't think we can overwrite it, at least not until we find it. I might be wrong, but so far have I not been able to make the new json work, without full competitive detail level.
In most peoples cases, is this not a problem, since they are managering in a League, with full competitive on, and if moving League, the League they move too, will automatically change to it. Pretty much any competition we as manager is in, should work fine with the new json. But I would have loved, if all simulated results in my save, was using it, anyhow.
#563452 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
The long and the short of it, the details levels for the game, where not set correct. Therefore was the game using default hard coded json file, when simulating. Yeah, that is a big mistake, but completely understandeble, when you see the correct statistics in the post further down, since V6.0 and the normal json file, is very similar. (And that is what I based my assumptions on, that all games applied to the json file no matter details. As the test showed me) Now we know, that is wrong. Details level do matter, if you want json to work. You need the full matche to render to apply anything else but the default.
This means, if you do not have details levels set to (All competitive matches,) Will only your own game be influenced by the new json file.
This is an example of what is getting influenced by new json files. England got the "All competitive matches" and so do World cup. All other leauges or counties, use default hard coded json file to calculate results.
Alright, so now when that little thing is out of the world, how about we look at some REAL statistics? ... At least just to prove a few things, here and there, that both I have claimed wrong and Sports Interactive. Again, unlike SI, I'm going to man up to my mistakes, and correct them.
Thanks to [@Fra] from our Discord, and admin on FM-base, did we make these test, very fast, and with 4 eyes, making no mistakes.
This is our baseline, the sports interactive normal engine, and the statestics it provided with one season in Seria A. We are again using top 10 teams, in each categori. That means, top 10 goal scoring teams, the top 10 teams Crosses completed, Top 10 teams in yellow cards, and so forth.
This is billgates v6.0. The green numbers are the changes bewteen this one, and the normal engine. As you can see, not much have changed in terms of statistics.
This is Thiago's v1.1. This engine, is still not out yet, but show a bit more crosses completed and few other fluctuating numbers, but nothing to big.
Billgates v7.2Beta2, that at some point will release lol. But again, borderline the same as the Sports interactive json file.
Verge v6.9, also known as Billgates 6.9, but Verge made it. And ignore that pink marker, it is just @Fra that had his mouse over it. Well this looks more and more like no changes, right? Well guess again.
This is Thiago's crazy engine. Thiago made an engine for me, that directly tried to break the game and the statistics. And so it did.
This means a couple of things.
- I was wrong, that is established. We do and can change the ME, both in physics, the results and statistics.
- When Sports interactive @Niel Brocks was telling us: "It was found to cause very strange behaviors and alter the balance outside real life parameters" do we now know, this to be utterly nonsense.
- On the other hand, do we completely agree with their statement "Making changes to the match engine is an incredibly complex balancing act to try and find the most enjoyable but yet also completely realistic representation of real life football." as this is way more complex then most of us thought, and just changing numbers and going with logic, is not enough. Not even remotely.
Again, I'm sorry for the confusing past week or two, but this is no ABC mod, and mistakes where pretty much guaranteed. I hope everyone is still enjoying the different florating versions, and we hopeyfully offically will have both Billgates v7.0 ready, and Thiago's v1.0 very soon.#563198 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Yes, all players behaviors is different, including the GK's. By "strong" do you mean to fast? Or is the animation overly dramatic? Is he turning and reacting to shoots in a way that seems unnatural?
"Strong" is very hard word to work with, as people tend to see and like different things, therefor you need to describe it in more details, or better yet, show us in a gif/video what you mean by, "wrong – @too strong."
The point of me saying that, is that I'm not seeing it. Which indicate I possibly like it, where you dislike it. Which could be important information to us, for developing new versions.
What most people want, they shall have.
@Fabio.Gemelli
There where no new version updates, just some configurations to the description. That is why it showed as an "update."
#563071 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
GERMANY 3.LIGA – Statistics from 3x saves 3x seasons simulated.
Nothing suggest increased red cards or penalties, like many comments on forums thought it did. neither do any other numbers getting influence by the json file. Some statistics fluctuate more then others in the game, depending on what League, quality of players, and managers interact with them. These test are not influenced by such things, and is made from 3x saves 3x seasons, and double leagues with different quality of players. Statistics speaks for it self. This was my second test, this one more thoroughly, and adding 10x saves and 10x seasons or adding all teams, would not change it, this is more then enough to give 99.9% clarity, speaking from a analyzing standpoint. It showed the same thing, as my first test, except from that little "Tackle" thing, that now is cleared from any possible doubt.
Statistics & stats are NOT influenced by the json files. Period.
#563022 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
I'll personally do some more testing on this. I believe this could be caused by the increased tackles% from the "min_delay_for_slide_tackle_receive" or one of the other strings that delay tackles or slides. This could potentially directly or indirect cause more red, if it is connected with other ME files.
I will do some long save simulated testing, and come back with results.
Thank you for the feedback.
#562794 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Thank you for the feedback.
One thing I have noticed, is that the game by default fluctuate a lot with goals scored, no matter what file. I'm not sure how that is coded in the match engine, and calculated, since many others sats seems to be borderline the same.
@diegodfa17
The description will be changed in the near future. along with our official name, and name of the mod. We are working on it, and will make up for the confusion. What we know now, did Billgates not know when he wrote the description. But we need the last analyzed to have concrete facts down. Therefore, have we not changed anything, or updated the mod yet.
Hope that clarify some confusion with conflicting descriptions, and posts that I make.
#562747 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
No, that is 6.0.
6.9 is only uploaded on our discord server.
https://discord.gg/qbKgZe
#562742 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
I recommend 6.9, as I don't see us making any changes to it, and more then likely will be made the 7.0 without changes, when we update it on the forums.
It is better then 6.0, slightly, but better. In all honesty, all changes from here on out, is only gonna be slightly better. Unless we make a really big break through.
6.0 was a really good version to begin with.
#562721 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
We are not doing this to hurt SI, or the sales. But if they where to give us the same options to edit the json file in FM21, am I sure it would have no effect on the overall scheme of things for them. On the other hand, do I tend to agree, that not doing it, could be bad for them. We hope they do allow us, but we just don't know.
This is not a Korean team. Yes we do have many Koreans, but we also got Brazilians, Danes, Germans, Belarussians and possibly more nationalities that I'm unaware off in the core team.
I have never worked for any sort of gaming company, but I'm pretty sure something like you describe, would take millions upon millions of $ to do. We are just poking the surface of what the total coding of FM is. This is not even the engine, but the skin applied to the 3D rendered world we see.
Daydream all you like, we got no money, and not nearly enough experience in game development within the team to create a competition. And neither do we want to be competition. We love this game, and want to make it better. Period.
#562704 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Live version is v6.0
Test version is v6.9
Test versions will be hidden in the future. The current v6.9 test version is 100% stable, but we would like to make sure, that no one will experience anything immersion breaking in the future. By having our test versions flowing around.
Test versions, is meant for the testers, that understands that it is NOT the live version, where there still could potential be odd behaviors happening after alterrations, and therefore needs testing
#562642 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
So far, nothing suggest that the ME file directly impact statistics. Maybe tackles, but that is it. From my own testing in Vanarama south and Primer League, did both the normal ME and the V6 ME come up with same amount of aveerage goals, or at least not outside perimeters I consider different.
It is far more likely, that the ME file, is nothing more then a skin for the 2D engine. @Beutifications for the 3D rendering. We are basing this on Schrödinger's cat theory, firstly in stats showing us that, no matter if we instant result, simulate or watch the highlight, will the overall average stay the same with deferent ME files. The highlights WILL change, if you change the ME file. But this don't change the results, or stats, as they are already processed by the game, and only showcasing a new visible way of showing us the match, witch is – Omniverse theory. Therefore our theory of the ME file being a skin to the 2D engine, and possibly nothing more.
#562625 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Lovely to hear Fox. I think you are the first content creator speaking English, that will look into it. Got a few Russians we know off already, that all came back with positive feedback according to my source.
but I hope you will enjoy it, even if playing on 2D. Where the changes for sure, will be harder to spot.
#562592 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
About SI, and that goes out to everyone. Unless you directly know something, then please stop speculating. It is nonsense, to try and make sense of something we know nothing about without facts.
About the video, as mentioned here and in the comments on youtube, is what the video is swhowing not the billgates v6 ME file. I have no idea what intentions the man behind the channel or fmscout got, or tries to point out. But it is clearly going to only hurt themself and potential the modding scene and communities behind it, when they put something like this out. That said, do he not mention anything about Billgates or directly his changes. But to me, is it told between the lines, even with the fact, that he calls it "A modding experiment by CAE" ... but also calling it "is the FM20 match Engine physics patch a placebo" that sort of suggest billgates mod on the fmscout forum.
I have suggested to billgates that we take down the mod completely from fmscout, as I can not endorse this youtube video, and I think same goes for 99% of people using the current v6 file. Yes, the physics in the ME file, can "break" the game, or at least the animated part of the match engine and making it completely unrealistic (as in the video,) but we are trying to do the direct opposite, as most people know.
@guy vaar , I would love if you could come to the discord server https://discord.gg/qbKgZe, and bring us some of those statistics. I haven't noticed many fouls, yellow card or red, but I might have overlooked penalties. And it seems we do have sort of the same setup, with many custom database players and a mixed batch of leauges. Would love to see the date, if you have it, or can repruduce the events.
#562523 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Their house, their rules. They own the game, and what will happen to it, in the future. But they don't own the files on my computer. Period.
We can bash on SI all we want. That is not gonna change anything, or is helpful at all. We can't force them to communicate, or change how they do things as a company. At least not by bashing heads against the wall.
#562522 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
I'm not sure if you are using steam. But in any case, the physcis folder are not in the documents folder, but in the steam installed folder, or Epic games, or what ever platform you are using.
Like this for steam:
Steam: Local disk:/Program Files (x86)/Steam/steamapps/common/Football Manager 2020/data/simatch/physics
#562462 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
That is speculation. There could be many reason to why the ME is as it is.
One thing. billgates v6 ME, do make the game harder to read for the broader audience, and less tactical knowledgeable players. The normal one, is pretty easy to read, and see when something goes right or wrong and correct it. Personally, do I believe this to be the most obvious reason, if I where to make a qualified guess.
Unfortunately, is the engine build as 2D, where the 3D is just a skin of sorts, so editing 3D animations are proberbly not possible per say, since they more then likely not exist. But that is really me stretching it, and getting over in assuming stuff, that I'm not 100% sure about. But it do seems to be the case, and why we are seeing so few updates over the years, on 3D.
At some point, am I sure SI will make a new engine entirely, but something like that, actually do take years, if they want to make it any good. They could have been working on that since 2016...we just don't know. SI is not really a big company per say, and if they are making an engine, it is proberbly mostly made by one coder over the years, witch make it take longer then what you will see from developer companies with 500 people, and 5 guys making the engine together.
#562449 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
No, FM19 is using another ME file.
#562447 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
We are working full time, actually way more then that, lol. Some of the Korean guys joined us, among them, the guy that actually found the way to do all this.
But that is not why I'm posting. I got a few bits and pieces of data and statistics, that might be of interest and remove some rumors, of what the ME file change or not change, in its current state.
This is the Original ME file stats, for one season simulated in Lower leauges (Vanarama South.)
This is Billgates V7.9 ME file, witch is the current we are working on, simulated the same way, with stats from Vanarama South.
Original ME file, with Premier League stats.
V7.9 ME file, with Premier League stats.
*CR% is Cross completed ratio.
*CR C is Crosses completed
Make your own assumptions, and conclusions from this please. But here is my take, of what I know and what assumptions I also have.
Facts:
- Lower League tackles, is affected directly by the strings in the ME file.
- To my understanding of reading numbers, nothing else is affected outside normal perimeters.
- Nothing suggest tackles in lower leauges have a big impact on League tables. More testing will be made on this, rest assure.
- SI are correct, when they told us that they saw numbers outside the normal perimeters, of what realistic statistics should look like. There could be more numbers and stats, but for now, only tackles in lower leauges is having odd behaviors.
- ME file, is applied to instant results and simulations. No more wondering about Schrödinger's cat.
My assumptions:- With the fact, that we know that tackles are influenced directly, but some other strings are not, and just beautifications. Will we also guess / assume that some strings might not work as intended (or logically) from the original ME. Hint to the delay in a new release.
- With only lower leauges being affected by tackles, and seemingly not Primer League, we must also assume, that the ME file, directly interact with other coding hidden to us. As lower quality players, is affected more by tackle physics strings, inside the ME. Possibly players with lower physical numbers, is the case.
- To me, is this a win / win. I like how the lower leauges feel now. Not only all the beautifications, but the tackles too. It might not be realistic in terms of statistics, and real life perimeters.. But I don't see unrealistic results, and to me, that is good enough. I hate immersive breaking stuff. And this do not break it for me, but add to it, inside the match engine.
- My last assumption, is also a win / win. I actually like, that it wont change statistics much and direct gameplay. But I do assume that the beautifications we make, by changing the ME file, is making changes to how animations and the flow of game looks and feels when they are applied to the new specific number and strings we change / add.
This is a handball, actually a handball:Tell me, have anyone else ever seen a real hand to the ball animated like that? I doubt it. Give me some more of that handball action please, or any other great unique animations or gameplay.
#562241 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Physics values in the ME file, 100% change the engine. We are currently testing some faulty strings, and understanding of what numbers we can use, and not use. One thing is obvious to us, extreme numbers, do extreme things to the game, not only the graphical or physics, but do stuff indirectly to plenty of other things, such as animations. Probably what they worry about us testing, and getting an understanding of, not being on their payroll. (Witch is sort of understandable.)
@update v7, is delayed for a while. The things we have learned tonight, kind of changes things, and what we can do and balance. For the better, but it will take some time to test all the strings, and then balance them to give a more realistic gameplay.
#562199 Football Manager 2020 realistic match engine patch
RellomQ
Mmm that is not a problem I have noticed all that much my self in either V6, or newer versions I have tested, but I'll make sure to look out for this behavior, as I think this is something we indeed can change if it occurs to often.
We are going for realisme. Completely removing / stopping something, is not really the intention. Smoothing the edges and making it flow better, is the main key.
In real games, do players loose there brain, and just stand there doing nothing getting nicked ... but not as often as in the original ME, I agree.
@kingrobbo
I'm for sure one of those. My bad, I'll do better.